"Quiet Zone"

You rest the sheet rock on spacers while fastening to the RC (bottom channel opens UP, all others open dOWN ) - the spacers should be 3/16" to 1/4" thick - then, after the rock is fastened, you pull the spacers, give it a day or two to sag, (won't be much) then you use acoustic caulk and seal it tight.

You need to do this for each layer, so you have a thicker barrier at the bottom of the wall where the caulk is the only barrier.

Technically, this would create a "4-leaf wall" - but the reality is, that small a cavity works out to a resonant freq. of about 12-15 kHz, which would be absorbed by the caulk.

You were asking about RC and corners a few days ago, did you check the latest detail drawing on John's site? Including the text explanations... Steve
 
Steve, unforunately, my budget wont allow for such a detailed format, I wish it would, I was thinking maybe: working from the bottom up,
skids, double layer of heavy roll roofing installed at right angles, 2x6 joists, fiberglass insulation for thermal only, a layer of quiet zone, a layer of 30 pound felt, 3/4" plywood, another double layer of roll roofing, building the walls over top of the roll roofing to act as an isolator. What are the possibilities of this configuration? Too bad money is almost always the deciding factor.
Thanks,
Jim
 
Michael, forgot to mention that the only reason USG gives for the bottom RC being inverted, is to make it easier to get the screws driven - otherwise, you'd be fastening the drywall onto the channel at about 1" off the floor. Kinda close for most drills to stay parallel, even if you DID use a garage "creeper" to roll along the floor while fastening the bottom.

I just picked up an excellent book on drywalling at Home Depot, it's just called Drywall - don't remember the author, and the book's not handy at the moment. I'll post the full info when I get a chance; I already learned more than enough to justify the cost of the book, and only read a few pages.

Jim, I know what you mean about the money thing - however, you kind of lost me in your description. The main thing you need to maintain is the concept of 2 centers of mass with one air space in between. You could lighten up the mass some, but if you change the BASIC idea your soundproofing will be severely hurt.

First, you want to stay away from plywood in sound walls - it's more expensive per thickness than any of the other materials, and does less for sound attenuation.

For the floor, you could use a layer of 3/4 waferwood below the joists and a layer of OSB above the joists, using 3x4" cut-up 1" horse mat for rubber pucks (check any good tack/feed store)

Then, for walls you would need to use pretty much what I drew, or you would lose a LOT of isolation. Sheet rock is the cheapest high-mass material you can buy for sound walls, it just can't be used outside. It also has pretty low strength for structural use, but it is pretty reasonable cost wherever you can get away with using it. Particle board is also cheaper than plywood and better at sound control, but may have been manufactured using binders (glue) that has formaldehyde. This stuff will outgas for quite a while, and it's a known carcinogenic in the rat-killing world; if you use it, it should NOT be the inner-most layer of wall/floor covering. There are special coatings available that will seal it, and two layers of urethane varnish have been reported to work pretty well also - but then again, there's ANOTHER expense - urethane varnish runs anywhere from $25 a gallon and up - a gallon will only cover about 5 sheets of 4x8 particleboard, given two full coats - so you've just raised your cost by $5 a sheet - it would be cheaper to just use 1-1/8" OSB tongue/groove flooring (glued at each joint) and be done with it.

As I said before, your description of the (affordable) plan kind of lost me - if you could either draw an example or re-word it, it might help.

Keep in mind that (looking at the first drawing) for best sound control you need to stick to the "2 mass, one air space" method - note from the drawing, that no matter where the sound tries to get in or out, it has to go through two separated mass centers. You can change WHAT that mass is, and still have reasonable isolation. But if you change HOW MANY, or WHERE, that mass is, you will lose a LOT of isolation.

Think it over, and come back with an approximate budget, preferred size of room, how picky your neighbors are and how loud your band plays, and maybe we can figure something out... Steve
 
Hi Steve,
Sorry for the confusion, let me see if I can try this again, Im strictly talking about the florr here, since the building will be labelrd a portable building, it will be built on 4x6 wooden skids, on top of the skids would be a double layer of 90 pound roll roofing for secondary mass, then the 2x6 joists would be built over the skids, between the joists would be pink fiberglass insulation which would be used for thermal insulation only, (air space) then over the top of the joists would be a layer of quiet zone acustcal batting, then a layer of 30 pound roofing felt to isolate the plywood flooring from the joists, then, a layer of 3/4" plywood for the floor, then another double layer of 90 pound roll roofing, the combination of the roll roofing, 3/4" plywood and the layer of quiet zone would act as the primary mass. Thus, mass, air space, mass.
The building will be 24'x24' 460 sqare feet, my neighbors are pretty typical, some worse than others but for the most part, reasonable, the band plays umm, err, well, actually it depends on the dynamics of the song we're playing, we can get loud no doubt! The building will be in the back yard with some trees and fence between lots. Anyway, I hope this clears things up at least a tad...
Thanks a million!
Jim
 
Hi Steve,
Sorry for the confusion, let me see if I can try this again, Im strictly talking about the florr here, since the building will be labelrd a portable building, it will be built on 4x6 wooden skids, on top of the skids would be a double layer of 90 pound roll roofing for secondary mass, then the 2x6 joists would be built over the skids, between the joists would be pink fiberglass insulation which would be used for thermal insulation only, (air space) then over the top of the joists would be a layer of quiet zone acustcal batting, then a layer of 30 pound roofing felt to isolate the plywood flooring from the joists, then, a layer of 3/4" plywood for the floor, then another double layer of 90 pound roll roofing, the combination of the roll roofing, 3/4" plywood and the layer of quiet zone would act as the primary mass. Thus, mass, air space, mass.
The building will be 24'x24' 460 sqare feet, my neighbors are pretty typical, some worse than others but for the most part, reasonable, the band plays umm, err, well, actually it depends on the dynamics of the song we're playing, we can get loud no doubt! The building will be in the back yard with some trees and fence between lots. Anyway, I hope this clears things up at least a tad...
Thanks a million!
Jim
 
Good lord, the building will be "labeled" a portable
The joists will be built on top of the roll roofing!
The building will be 20'x24' 480 square feet! jeeze oh man! Edit
 
Jim, I'm not sure where you got the idea that roll roofing by itself is a viable sound barrier - it would only work as an add-on between rigid layers, like particle board, OSB, Waferwood, and Sheet rock.

Keep in mind that 90 pound roll roofing means that 100 square feet of the product weights 90 pounds. Sheet rock weighs about 50 pounds per 4x8 sheet, and it would take just over 3 sheets to equal 100 square feet - sooo, sheet rock has an equivalent mass as 160 pound roll roofing (if they made that)

Also remember that the 2 mass 1 space thing assumes total hermetic seals - that's not possible with roll roofing as a stand-alone material, since the seams will always leak air.

If you're trying to save money and still have a point to building at all, you'd be better off forgetting the roll roofing and putting that money into a real "secondary mass" below the floor joists, such as 3/4 OSB.

Also, if you're planning a building that large, whether or not it's called portable, you won't be moving it, right? If not, then you could use a double steel-stud wall in place of the staggered stud wall, and improve the Transmission loss enough to only use one layer of 5/8" sheet rock inside - if, after everything else is done, you find that it's not enough isolation, you could add a second layer of sheet rock inside.

Soundproofing adheres to the "weakest link" theory, so it's pointless to build great walls over cardboard floors, or great ceilings over thin/cheap walls. If you have 20 x 24, it would help a lot to incorporate a sound lock - no single door I know of, short of a $5k Overly door, can stop sound as good as the walls I drew, much less a true isolated double wall.

You still didn't mention your budget - that would help me help you with ideas that would actually WORK and not be a waste of your time/money/sweat... Steve
 
Hi Steve,
A friend gave me the idea
of using roll roofing, he said he used it on the walls of his make-shift studio with relative success, the seams would run opposed, meaning that one layer lengthwise and the other widthwise to minimize leakage. Since Im obviously no expert at this, It made sense to me to use it as a source of mass under the joists since sheetrock would be out of the question. What exactly is OSB? And would the use of quiet zone in the floor be beneficial, as its relatively affordable. This building will not be moved, even though its labeled portable. At this point, Im not overly concerned about the walls, they will be initially constructed out of 2x4's, rock wool or 703 whichever I can find, 2 layers of 5/8" sheetrock one layer vertical the other horizontal then a layer of 3/4" tarboard for acustical treatment, with the possibility of adding an additional wall if needed. Same with the ceiling, there will be a substantial airspace in the ceiling as Im using sissor trusses the achieve a vaulted ceiling. The approximate budget allowance is in the 10k range.... Again, thank you
Jim
 
Hey Steve,

Roofing felt has been use as membrane absorber as limp mass and has also been used as bass trap hangers with rockwool attached to either side. The practice was discontinued because of the flammability of the roofing felt. (am I really happy about this being on my roof then?)
That is probably where the idea came from.

Eric
 
Hi Eric,
The material Im refering to is not roofing felt, its the actual thickness of ashfalt shingles including the sand, except it comes in a 100 suqare foot roll,,,, just want to be sure we're talking about the same stuff....... felt is usually #30 or #15.
Jim
 
Yeah, I know limp mass works well as stated - however, for purposes of sound proofing, you need two, not one or three, centers of mass that are HERMETICALLY SEALED.

Material definitions as I'm aware of them, so we know if we're all on the same page -

15#, 30# roofing felt - asphalt-impregnated paper, in two different weights, light and heavy - normally used as a vapor barrier in roofs, placed over plywood or waferwood sheathing before the final roofing material is attached.

90# roll roofing - basically one long, approximately 3 foot wide, asphalt shingle, rolled up for shipping/handling - available with (and I believe without) wear enhancing gritty stuff. This and the lighter felts are labeled by their weight in 100 square feet, or as roofers call it, 1 square. Roll roofing is normally used in budget roof construction - it looks cheap, but goes on faster and easier than separate 3-tab asphalt shingles.

Plywood - hopefully self-explanatory. Lighter and less effective sound blocking per unit thickness than several cheaper alternatives, among them -

Particle board, a sheet of wood-based material made of sawdust and glue, mixed into a slurry and run through a multi-ton roller press at high temperatures to form a dense but structurally weak sheet - typically 4x8 feet, in thicknesses from 1/4" up to at least 1" - most reasonably priced particle board is made with aldehyde binders, and tends to outgas for long periods of time making it not a good choice for inside layers in a building. There are reports linking aldehydes to cancer. It can be used as an intermediate, dissimilar layer in sound walls but should be sealed with either special particle board sealer or two coats of urethane varnish. Not usable outside, even with primer and paint. Swells up with moisture and crumbles.

Wafer wood - made similar to particle board, but I don't believe they use the same types of glue - I've not heard of any outgassing problems (doens't mean there are none) Waferwood has larger "chunks" of wood used in it, and looks like someone took a bunch of wood scraps and ran them through the same big press (they did) to make a flat sheet. Used as sheathing on most new houses for both walls and roof. Not as dense, nor quite as good for sound attenuation, as particle board. Can be used for outer layers if primed and painted, or wrapped with vapor barrier before siding is attached.

MDF, or Medium Density Fiberboard - like particleboard, but denser, more expensive, and I'm not sure about the glue/binders used. Really good for sound proofing layer. Also used for the majority of speaker boxes, unless they are made with portability i mind, then they're usually made with plywood for more strength, less weight. Not good for outer layers, even when primed and painted.

OSB, or Oriented Strand Board - kind of a cross between particle board and Wafer wood - larger chunks (oriented, so it has sort of a grain structure) than particle board, but smaller and more directional than Wafer wood. About the same density as Wafer wood, maybe slightly more? Can be used as outer layer if primed and painted - not very attractive though, best used out of sight.

Sheet rock - compressed gypsum contained between two paper layers - some types are fire retardant (called fire code) for use between garages or other sources of possible fire, and living/sleeping quarters. The thicker the layer, the longer the fire rating. Low cost, excellent sound proofing material with limited structural strength and can't be used as an outer layer because it will soak up water and crumble. There are versions made for relatively wet environments, such as behind tile in a bathroom, but they are more expensive and still have little structural strength compared to plywood, etc.

Durock, or Wonder Board - used behind tile in tub areas mostly - made of cement with fiberglas matting on both sides to hold it together, it is heavy, dense, expensive, and probably really good for sound proofing because of all those qualities (except the expensive part) comes usually in 3x5 sheets (@%$@#$@???) which would make it a pain in the ass to fit to most stud spacings, but just about perfect for a 5 foot bath tub...

There are probably several materials I left out, but those are the most commonly available with any useful sound proofing application that someone other than Bill Gates can afford.

Quiet Zone between floor joists or wall studs should work fine - if I remember correctly, it's about the same mass as rockwool, maybe a little less.

As to the idea of "adding another wall" if necessary, you'd be better off using better isolation in the first place - you REALLY need to understand how little help a third center of mass, with it's additional air space, helps sound proofing. You're much better off putting another layer of mass in one of the two main leaves of the wall instead. There is documented PROOF that the PLACEMENT of materials can make up to 23 dB of difference in wall performance. That's the same as moving the noise source FOUR TIMES as far away!

I just ran a quick calculation of material costs using Waferwood outside, sheet rock inside, including trusses, roofing, double 5/8 sheet rock inside, with the floor as I drew it - not including siding, doors, windows or acoustic treatment you're under $4k by a small amount. Adding staggered studs and RC for a SERIOUS improvement in wall performance would only add about $400 to that cost. If you don't want to be disappointed in the result, I really wouldn't recommend trying to save money on the basics because you can NEVER get it back by add-ons later. I can't even count the number of people who tried to save a little, and ended up either spending LOTS MORE for very little improvement, or else RIPPING it all out and starting over.

I'm only trying to save you some grief here, but in the end it's your choice. I hope you make the right one for you... Steve
 
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the great advice, I definately dont want to have to re-do the room. Question, Im not familiar with RC and the staggered stud process.
I will build the walls with two centers of mass, using OSB behind the exterior siding, then a double layer of sheetrock on the inside. Im still a little uncertain about the floor. Possibly OSB under the joists, quiet zone, #30 roofing felt then another layer of OSB. Sound reasoable?
Thanks,
Jim
 
Jim, I don't have much time before work this morning, but here's the link to some details of staggered stud construction -

http://www.homer.com.au/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=328&start=0

scroll down to near the bottom of the first page.

Also, here are a couple links to construction techniques, from US Gypsum - they make Resilient Channel, or RC - do a search on "resilient" and you should find some info -

http://www.usgaction.com/handbook/toc.htm

http://www.usg.com/Design_Solutions/2_3_8_tableofcontent.asp

Oh, and yes what you suggested in your last post should work fine -

Gotta run for now, that should give you some reading material for a few hours... Steve
 
Hey Steve!
Thanks for the links.
I can only find 1/2" OSB in my area, I was planning on 3/4", will 1/2" work or should I persue an alternative?
Thanks,
Jim
 
Hey Steve,
I was able to locate both 3/4" and 1/2 " particle board, or affectionatly refered to as "hernia board" here localy, would I effectively be able to get away with 1/2" ? That stuff aint cheap!
Anyway, Construction is slated for the 23rd, I have a pretty good plan,
so here we go!
And Id like to take this opportunity to thank you once again for all your patience
and much needed information which will guide me thru this project.
Thanks again,
Jim
 
Jim, you could use particle board for an INNER layer (not in contact with human space) but shouldn't use it for a layer that will be either outside or next to people INSIDE the room. That's the stuff that, unless you get a special type, has serious outgassing problems from the aldehyde glue/binder that's used in the manufacturing process. 1/2" particle board has about the same mass as sheet rock, as far a sound isolation goes.

If you can't find OSB in 3/4, you should look for 3/4 waferwood for your inner floor sheathing. 1/2" isn't strong enough to span joists for any kind of load, even with 16" centers. As to cost, even 1-1/8 flooring plywood at about $28 per sheet would only cost about $420 for the top floor sheath. Remember, the more mass you use the better the isolation... Steve
 
Ok Steve, so far Ive secured 3/4" OSB for under the floor joists, between the joists will be generic thermal insulation with a layer of quiet zone over it, then #30 roofing felt over that, (is this stage necessary?) Then another layer of 3/4" OSB, and by the way, the OSB is tongue and groove, then a layer of 3/4" plywood. For the walls, from the inside out,,, 1/2" asphault sheething, two layers of 1/2" sheetrock with the joints staggered, a layer of quiet zone along with thermal insulation between the studs, then 3/4" OSB and finally, a layer of 1/2" exterior siding. All seams caulked. This I can do. Thoughts? Thanks man,
Jim
 
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