quality of digital recorders

[Ed Dixon]

As a general rule, I never use compression, unless there are special cases. What I do perform during mixdown is a normalization of tracks so that each starts with the same volume range. Then sliders are used to adjust relative volume.

Most of what I record has no noise, so even if I used compression (which I generally don't), little would change.

I do try and get the original tracks at or near 0 db level during record. That way you start with tracks with as full a range as possible.

The effects I use during mixdown are usually EQ, reverb, delay, and other similar options. Guitars are recorded with all guitar effects already in place. Drums are recorded raw as are vocals. That way you sweaten each during mixdown as desired.

Ed

 

[Farview]

You will certainly have more experience than I, since I am a hobby level 'engineer' with a VS 880 EX. Of course 16 bit CD's sound fine, 16 bit is fine for playback. Would you agree that recording a signal at -12dB on a 16 bit machine, and bringing it up to near-commercial CD level internally, will ruin the signal? Whether it is specifically 'resolution' or high end,' it results in a dull sound, similar to what I heard, most notably on the cymbols.

That would depend on how you are getting the volume. If you are simply pushing the fader up, you are clipping the mix buss. That will goof up your sound something fierce. A 24 bit signal would do the same thing.

The problem with the Roland VS series of recorders is the fact that they only have a 24 bit fixed point mix buss. It is way too easy to clip (with no indicators to tell you) when you don't have your gain staging under control.

Everybody I know that has one of these is constantly clipping the mix buss on these things. I do a lot of mixing for guys who have these things and that is the #1 problem.

Commercial CD level comes from mastering, not mixing. They are two separate processes that require different tools and a different mindset.

 

[Farview]

The EX has a nice mastering patch that includes a multiband compressor and expander, parametric eq, and exciter, and a couple other goodies. It is basically the only internal compression effect I use now. While it is great for my halfassed attempts at mastering, it still yields the dull sound after bouncing to increase volume.

You might be better off not using the multiband, you can do more harm than good. A straight compressor into a limiter might be the way to go.

BTW, if the multiband is sounding dull, compress the highs a little more and bring up the makeup gain on just the highs. You are in control, if you think it sounds too bright or too dull, change it.

 

[ermghoti]

Good points, Far. I am sloppy with my language, and your corrections make my posts clearer.

Actually the VS880 EX has only a 20 bit internal processing rate, in addition to 16 bit converters. I overloaded my mix buss something fierce a while back, ended up turning down inputs to control the clipping, wasted the whole session. Insidious.

Of course,as demonstrated here the machines can produce decent results if properly massaged.

In any case, I do get my overall volume in mastering* and not in turning up during the mix. The problem I am describing, with, to use a particularly odious example, DI bass, is if I track without compression, such that the level does not clip the input, and put the fader up post recording to the point of being "mixably loud," to coin a clumsy phrase, it collects a sonic signature similar to the track being complained about here: dull, distant and indistinct. Using pre-AD compression results in a clear crisp, punchy bass sound. My assumption was the machine lacked sufficient bit depth to amplify the signal, much as clipping a portion of a digital photography, and expanding it to the size of the original looks wahed-out and choppy. The newly amplified signal is dull before any other processing, and trying to enhance the highs does nothing; the highs are not there.

If I can get permission from the recordees, I will be happy to post/attach some examples. If not, I can slap a couple quick takes together with stuff lying around the house.


* I don't pretend to be any good at mastering, but I can usually improve upon my unmastered mixes, and up the perceived volume to acceptable levels.

 

[Farview]

In any case, I do get my overall volume in mastering* and not in turning up during the mix. The problem I am describing, with, to use a particularly odious example, DI bass, is if I track without compression, such that the level does not clip the input, and put the fader up post recording to the point of being "mixably loud," to coin a clumsy phrase, it collects a sonic signature similar to the track being complained about here: dull, distant and indistinct. Using pre-AD compression results in a clear crisp, punchy bass sound. My assumption was the machine lacked sufficient bit depth to amplify the signal, much as clipping a portion of a digital photography, and expanding it to the size of the original looks wahed-out and choppy. The newly amplified signal is dull before any other processing, and trying to enhance the highs does nothing; the highs are not there.

This is something that might be unique to your unit. There is no technical reason why something would sound dull just because it was recorded at a lower level (unless we are talking about -30dbfs or something really low)

 

[treymonfauntre]

yea i thought the general rule was for every 6db you love 1 bit of quality? unless you're tracking retarded quiet its not going to make a huge difference. but it does worry me all the time since my portable recorder is only 16 bit

 

[Farview]

yea i thought the general rule was for every 6db you love 1 bit of quality? unless you're tracking retarded quiet its not going to make a huge difference. but it does worry me all the time since my portable recorder is only 16 bit

For every 6 db, you don't use 1 bit. It's still there, you just aren't using it. Most of what you hear is 10, 15, 20db below the transient that you see on your meters. You really have to be recording really, really low to make much of a difference.

 

[ermghoti]

There are certainly a few wierd idiosyncracies to the VS, and I am a recording retard, so I could be typing out of my ass here. I would love to be wrong, as it would mean I could cut down drastically on crap I have to tote around to record a demo. When I have time in a couple days, I'll grab a bass, an acoustic, and my drum module, and see if I can't replicate the effect I am suffering from.

In the meantime, a little compression is making my tracks much, much better, but maybe I just like a little compression?

 

[Farview]

Compression on the way in is not a bad thing, if it works keep doing it.