pt rant

[tc4b]

I've been using PT for about 10 years, and I love it. I love my 001. Only now I've been left in the dust by Digidesign, because the newest version of pt I can use with the 001 is 6.4, and the OLDEST version that works with Vista is 7.4. So in order to upgrade toi the processor I want (pentium core 2 duo) I am stuck hacking this freaking Dell until it accepts XP as it's personal savior, er, oprating system, finding drivers for the chipset and all that crap, and believe me it's not easy or quick.

At first I figured hey, I'm using 10 year old gear, so yeah it's going to go obsolete. But today I had a LOT of time to think, and fuck that. I should be able to upgrade my software. And I'd be perfectly willing to PAY for that upgrade, in order to use my 001 with Vista and save myself the headache. I just feel like Digi is giving the finger to its 001 users, which were pretty early adopters of their home setup.

Doing my research today, I find that there are a LOT of us.

I know I will need to do a software AND hardware upgrade costing about 1000 dollars to enter the 64-bit world (at my level of quality and expertise, make fun if you want) but it most definitely will not be with Digidesign products. I have no faith whatsoever they'll support whatever I buy for an appreciable amount of time. I'm going to buy a piece of hardware that works with a number of DAW's, including reaper, from a company that has a history of legacy support.

And I know I'm being picky, I want to still use my 001, I want to still use protools, I want a core2duo (for Reason, Fruityloops, and others, not to mention plugins) and 64 bits for buttloads of ram... and the list goes on. I'm a whiner, I know. Just, how fucking hard would it be to SELL, you know for MONEY, to SELL me a piece of software that would let me use my 001 in vista? Even vista 32? Windows 7 is coming soon, sure, but do you really think there'll be a driver for it I can use with the 001? No, because Digi doesn't give a flying fuck about its 001 users.

Sorry for the rant, it's been a looooooooooong, FRUSTRATING day.

 

[bennychico11]

I understand your pain...but unfortunately, as you already know, Digi has stopped supporting the 001 for sometime. EVERY company has to abandon old technology at one time or another in order to concentrate on creating new technology. If they continued to support older systems like you and many other 001 users would like...how far back would they have to go? The Pro Tools Mix systems? The PT III or the original hardware back from 1994?

I'm no programmer, but I'm sure there are also physical limitations with the hardware/software out there now. Microsoft and Apple change things with their OS' that I'm sure causes problems with newer versions of PT being able to be compatible with older hardware. In the end, yes the company should care about all it's customers...from the first ones to the latest ones. But in reality they are just like any other corporation. They are guaranteed to make more money on the newer and latest technology than they will on charging older customers using the 001 a small fee to upgrade. Technology changes and a company like Avid/Digi needs to stay current. However, you will find Digi is one of the few companies out there that offer an exchange value for your hardware. You can trade in your 001 and receive a discount on newer gear/current gear.

Again, I understand your complaint. But every software/hardware company out there...audio and non-audio related...does this. You paid money awhile back for a product that you received and have used for quite some time. So I'd say you go your money's worth

 

[pezking]

I hear what you're saying but I have to whole heartedly disagree and say that you're using outdated hardware. You're aware of that.

Digi has a massive amount of legacy support. The Mbox, the 002 are both still supported in LE. Pro Tools | 24 interfaces (12 years old) are still supported with Pro Tools HD. How long should they continue to support legacy hardware? You probably paid $1500 for your 001 when it came out. For a home enthusiast that's quite a sizable investment. However I think that it's paid itself off over 10 years of usage. It's time to move on... If they continue to provide legacy support, then the programme will get more and more clunky. Furthermore they have no obligation to provide ongoing support, the fact that they have done for the past 7 years since it was discontinued is a courtesy that has been extended to you and other 001 users. At the end of the day Digidesign and Avid are hardware manufacturers. They want to sell hardware. Not software. Like I said I think it's time to move on.

Get a 003 with the Digidesign exchange programme. You'll get trade in value on your 001. Or sell your 001 privately and take a new path in your DAW journey.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

I know your frustrated but this doesn't seem all that unreasonable


As mentioned before, yes it is costly for Digi to assign company resources to continue to support older machines. Especially machines that are 10 years old. It would literally require Digi to hire more folk. You don't think Digi could or would hire new folk without passing the cost on to you do you? You would WITHOUT DOUBT be more frustrated with the cost of upgraded software for legacy hardware if Digi chose that path. It wouldn't be the cost of an 003 but it MAY be more than investing in an M-Box.

Digi also made it very clear (4 or 5 years ago) that they were discontinuing support for the 001. They do that to diffuse those that may have some preconceived idea that the 001 would last 15 years into the future. I would think 5 years would be enough time to adjust and accept that the 001 was just not coming into the now. It is by no means as if Digi suddenly yanked the rug out from underneath you.

Playing the multiple applications/hardware/firmware/drivers/computer upgrade game always, always, always presents some degree of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Computers are exponentially faster than they were just a couple years ago. Operating Systems both from Apple and especially from Microsoft have been ummm unpredictable at best.Third party plug-in's come at a break neck pace and it's certainly NOT exclusive to Digidesign to struggle to keep up with the frey and make no mistake keeping upwith the frey is costly.

You could stay with the 001 and get a cheapo Best Buy laptop to run Reason Fruity Loops ect. You could up grade your computer to Digi specs ditch the 001 and get an M-Box. You could take advantage of the Digi hardware trade in program which is very fair and get an 003. Any of these solutions while not free is not especially expensive.

 

[Mr. ROUSH]

I have mixed emotions about this.. especially in times like these.. yes it's important to stay on the forefront ot technology, but not at the expense of consumers who drive it.. I'm not saying they should sacrifice their pursuit but I am saying they shouldn't leave behind the ones who create the demand..

If you sell a product to the public.. you should support it.. period.. There are too many equivilent alternatives to pro tools for them to be conducting business this way. Any other DAW option is far better supported, and far more versatile.. It's not technology that prevents the lack of support and compatibility.. it's the Digi trap.. a design to present the necessity for you to spend more money.. just like the fact that automatic delay compensation is a luxury of HD only.. if you want it.. spend the dough to go HD..

Business is business.. however as competative as the market is, it would be wise to provide equal or better options as far as support and compatibility.. I feel like they've made enough off of the name and position of being "the industry staple".. it's time they earn our money based on having fully superior products and support that are parallel to all of the alternatives..

Now all of that being said.. I love Pro Tools.. when it comes down to it.. the way I work.. for what I'm used to.. there is nothing better.. I won't ever change.. I'll endure the punches and roll with them because I prefer it as my DAW of choice.. however, this comes at the price of inferior support and compatibility.. and it doesn't HAVE to be that way.. There's no reason the same technology they are chasing can't be used to bridge the gap for those who got Digi where they are from the beginning. It's unrealistic in todays market to expect people will continue to pay out to upgrade hardware when they can go another route.. saving money.. getting the same results.. having the comfort of knowing that the hardware will serve them much longer. There shouldn't be any half way IMO. Just my 2 pennies.

 

[pezking]

How can you slate the support that Digidesign offer? It's second to none. Support is given by people who actually use the software, instead of the attitude of many big companies who out source this "requirement" and expectation to 3rd party call centres who have never seen a guitar let alone try to record one.

Apple are shocking at software support. Simply shocking.

How many other software manufacturers give specific models which are qualified with their application? (Don't say Logic, that's an unfair comparison as it is not hardware agnostic).

Pro Tools is not consumer software. It's a professional product which has, to some extent, been ported over to a consumer friendly programme. People need to realise that. Yes you have to jump through hoops to use certain platforms but at the end of the day, it's a professional system. It's far more in depth than any other DAW, it's coded at a much lower level, and does not use ASIO/Core Audio which every other DAW does. If you're serious about your music recording, you're not going to try to run it on a $400 best buy desktop. If you do, you're just kidding yourself.

The 001 has had its day.

There is so much going on with Pro Tools under the hood, a lot of which is to do with backwards compatibility. This is crippling the operation of Pro Tools.

 

[tc4b]

Problem solved, like so:

"slipstream" sp2 into my xp disk, install xp2. Install ASIO 6.1.1 drivers independent of PT.

Install (and record with) Reaper.

I have to say, I'm pretty happy about how it worked out. Not thrilled, I do love PT, but it was time. I agree with or at least understand everything said here. My initial rant was pretty emotional. Picture your state of mind after 12 hours or so of fruitless, TEDIOUS trial-and-error stuff with your computer.

However, I have some replies, all offered in the spirit of friendly conversation, not "OMZG UR SO DUMM!!!" internet flame style. Honestly, I'm cool with all the point you made. But, from my perspective:

"EVERY company has to abandon old technology at one time or another..."

True, a fact I bitterly accept, but where the 001 is concerned I'd be willing to bet enough of us luddites would be willing to shell out $40 or so for an update, maybe enough for them to pay the salary of the guy who would write the code. Just maybe, that's all I'm sayin'.

"How can you slate the support that Digidesign offer?"

Because they no longer support the 001.

"Digi also made it very clear (4 or 5 years ago) that they were discontinuing support for the 001."

I hear you, but it doesn't make my 001 any more useable knowing 5 years in advance.

The sentiment I think I most agree with is this:

"I have mixed emotions about this.. especially in times like these.."

I love PT, and it's sad for me to not be able to use it anymore. I'm hoping that, in time, I'll come to like Reaper just as much, and when I upgrade my hardware I'll buy a good mixer with a fw card, so even if the manufacturer bricks it in the future, I'll still have a decent mixer.

Thanks again for your comments, and sorry so emotional.

 

[iownrocknroll]

with the hardware program you can walk into a 003 Rack Factory for around $800 USD

if you buy from a sweetwater rep, they will allow you to split it up into 3 interest free monthly payments.

 

[Yonce N Mild]

You'll love reaper and you'll love not being tied to a limited selection of overpriced hardware.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

If you sell a product to the public.. you should support it.. period..

Digi did support the 001 and they supported it better than ANYONE in the industry supported their own product. I know as I was there. Lexicon, Seasolo, Event, Emu, Motu, Ardvark, Steinberg, RME and a host of others ALL have hardware that's no longer supported. Nothing here exclusive to Digidesign.

There are too many equivilent alternatives to pro tools for them to be conducting business this way.

This statement only holds water if you foolishly believe Digidesign has historically NOT supported their product.

Any other DAW option is far better supported, and far more versatile..

Really?? That's a REALLY bold statement. What is it based on?

It's not technology that prevents the lack of support and compatibility.. it's the Digi trap..

There is NO DIGI TRAP. You are presumably a smart consumer. If you enter into the Digi game the assumption is you know how Digi navigates the waters of the industry. They have without flinching used the same business model since day one. They release a product, it has a life (based on industry trends and Operating System development) those devices are supported, they give an incredibly wide berth as to how the non-support status is handled, they create new product and THEN (unlike anyone in the industry) they offer VERY aggressive trade-in programs.

a design to present the necessity for you to spend more money..

Please name me one company in the history of the world who doesn't operate on this mind set. Are you suggesting for instance Motu runs their company based on something other than profits???

just like the fact that automatic delay compensation is a luxury of HD only.. if you want it.. spend the dough to go HD..

Again by your own sword. There are alternatives some in fact practically free that fly the banner of "delay compensation". It's important to note however that some "delay compensation" implementations are comical at best. If you buy into the internet wives tale bull crap carrot that is delay compensation then you have many, many alternatives to spending on an HD system. In fact if you actually purchased an HD system based on delay comp only you'd be again a ill informed consumer.

I feel like they've made enough off of the name and position of being "the industry staple"..

Really?? Based on what?? The internet wives tale that Digidesign takes a seat at the dinner table next to Exxon is sophomoric. I'd like to see your empirical data here.

It's no secret that Digi's had some recent startling financial challenges and have in fact been forced to lay off some of their best, brightest and most longstanding employees.

it's time they earn our money based on having fully superior products and support that are parallel to all of the alternatives..

I work in Pro Tools 12 hours a day 6 days a week under some of the most pressure-full situations imaginable. It is (Pro Tools) by any standard a superior product and in the many, many times something strange has popped up that we can't handle Digi support as well as local Los Angeles Digi reps have been on the scene almost instantly. The only other support team that's even remotely close is Spectrasonic

 

[Joseph Hanna]

"Digi also made it very clear (4 or 5 years ago) that they were discontinuing support for the 001."

I hear you, but it doesn't make my 001 any more useable knowing 5 years in advance.

The point being that for 5 years you knew the product you were using was not supported. Dropping spare change from your pocket every day in the piggy bank over a 5 year period would have solved the problem and then some. That said reaching a point five years down the road and screaming to the heavens about how evil Digidesign is seems ill conceived.

The path is well defined. Whatever interface you choose in the future will (as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow) become obsolete.

These are clearly "disposable" times we live in. Let the buyer beware.

 

[Mr. ROUSH]

Well I certinaly didn't mean to offend anyone here.. but I still stand behind my observations.. let me simplify my perspective some..

lets just forget about digi for a moment.. let's look at any business model.. there is a different between profit and gouging.. I'm not saying they shouldn't be a profitable company.. I wish them all the profit in the world.. I'm simply saying they could cater more to the average market they have built the company around..

I can go out and get any number of interfaces that will work with the majority of DAW's that are popular.. of course this isn't the case w/ protools.. They could support more intefaces.. why not?

Like I mentioned.. not a deal breaker.. but where so many DAW's do provide automatic dealy compensation.. pro tools does not.. forget the fact that you can find plenty of free work arounds.. it's just a simple observation.. something they could be doing that they are not where others are..

I'm also not bagging on tech support.. They are certainly second to none.. I'm saying they don't support the older hardware, or other interfaces.. where they could.. they've taken the world class support they do provide away from those who utilize older harware..

As to my "bold" statement.. I'm mainly basing this on the fact that other DAW's support many more third party options for hardware.. where protools does not.. and could be..

Again these are simple observations where Avid/Digi could be putting forth more effort to meet the demand.. I'm not knocking the product.. end of the day it's worth every penny and ounce of frustration I've put into it.. I won't jump ship.. I love protools. LOVE IT!! I just wish that Digi would stop gouging and taking advantage consumers where it isn't necessary..

 

[Joseph Hanna]

No offense taken Mr. Roush There are just times when for the benefit of those whom might be peeking in here and who do not yet have a feel for what is fact and forum fiction I feel uber compelled to diffuse some common misconceptions.

I know from first hand experience Digidesign does NOT conduct their business based around gouging techniques. They like any other decently run company based their decisions on a combination of a marketable, fair product that also has the capabilities of generating company profit. It is an expensive business to maintain. Good code writers are NOT cheap. The Digi engine needs major a overhaul and the cost of tearing it down to nuts and bolts, both in terms of man power/finances AND what it would do to the Post Production Digi/Avid world is Biblical.

It is and has always been a good product for a fair market supportable price. There is no underlying black helicopter scheme. They do not show profit margins that would ever generate the hate that is demonstrated on many forums.

 

[tc4b]

The point being that for 5 years you knew the product you were using was not supported. Dropping spare change from your pocket every day in the piggy bank over a 5 year period would have solved the problem and then some. That said reaching a point five years down the road and screaming to the heavens about how evil Digidesign is seems ill conceived.

The path is well defined. Whatever interface you choose in the future will (as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow) become obsolete.

These are clearly "disposable" times we live in. Let the buyer beware.

You're right. I know you are. I know my attitude of wanting a piece of hardware I like to be usable indefinitely is outdated. I was thinking about tape machines, and how if you bought one (and took good care of it) it would STILL be useable now in 2009.

But like I say, I know, I'm old, or stubborn, or sentimental, like my 001 is like an old friend. I get it.

I think I found a half-solution to the problem, though. If I buy, say and ONYX mixer with a firewire card, even when that fw card becomes obsolete, I still have a pretty nifty mixer.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

But like I say, I know, I'm old, or stubborn, or sentimental, like my 001 is like an old friend. I get it.

Absolutely understandable and in this day and age it's rare that someone actually wants to stick with something they've grown fond of. This is also a generation of "I need to purchase something that will make me better" and it's cool you've stuck with the 001 for this long. I hope you grow comfortable with whatever choice you make next....just keep an eye out for future roadblocks!!

I was thinking about tape machines, and how if you bought one (and took good care of it) it would STILL be useable now in 2009.

Yes, yes of course some hardware will obviously stand the test of time. My OLD Drawmer comps are still as musical as anything to date. I'm not so sure about tape machines however. Ask some of the wild men here in L.A. how much coin it cost to keep a 2 inch in even decent shape...It is finicky and astronomical endeavor to keep tape machines running and by some budgets the cost of maintenance alone renders them obsolete. Like trying to maintain a B-17.

 

[Mr. ROUSH]

Well I certainly see your point.. I would never want anyone to base any decision on what I've put in here, or specifically what anyone person's opinion would suggest in here or any forrum.. I firmly believe each person should form a first hand opinioin of thier own..

While maybe they don't intentionally conduct business around gouging techniques.. gouging is certainly a byproduct of thier hardware portfolio. I suppose m-powered is thier attempt to provide an affordable solution in conjunction with m-audio.. but Avid has aquired m-audio.. so that's not really a fair example even.. expanding to other third party platforms could only make sense to me all the way around.. I firmly believe this would multiply thier business.. Yes it would reduce sales of thier own hardware options.. in black in white they would have no choice but to look at this as a loss.. but profit is about risk and "models". Take the risk.. support more third pary interfaces or at least provide more digi interfaces, and more affordable digi interfaces.. To me it's a win, win..

I'm fortunate to have afforded a 003, and it's a fine piece of hardware.. However if i were on the other end of this scenario (and I suppose I will be eventually) I would just expect more alternatives since there are possible alternatives that could be provided that just aren't.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

Well I certainly see your point.. I would never want anyone to base any decision on what I've put in here, or specifically what anyone person's opinion would suggest in here or any forrum.. I firmly believe each person should form a first hand opinioin of thier own..

While maybe they don't intentionally conduct business around gouging techniques.. gouging is certainly a byproduct of thier hardware portfolio. I suppose m-powered is thier attempt to provide an affordable solution in conjunction with m-audio.. but Avid has aquired m-audio.. so that's not really a fair example even.. expanding to other third party platforms could only make sense to me all the way around.. I firmly believe this would multiply thier business.. Yes it would reduce sales of thier own hardware options.. in black in white they would have no choice but to look at this as a loss.. but profit is about risk and "models". Take the risk.. support more third pary interfaces or at least provide more digi interfaces, and more affordable digi interfaces.. To me it's a win, win..

I'm fortunate to have afforded a 003, and it's a fine piece of hardware.. However if i were on the other end of this scenario (and I suppose I will be eventually) I would just expect more alternatives since there are possible alternatives that could be provided that just aren't.

I can't disagree with any of this

 

[bennychico11]

I'm also not bagging on tech support.. They are certainly second to none.. I'm saying they don't support the older hardware, or other interfaces.. where they could.. they've taken the world class support they do provide away from those who utilize older harware..

this is actually not true. Just because Digi says they aren't supporting older hardware in new software updates...doesn't mean that tech support won't still help you. I've received tech support via phone and e-mail regarding my old Mix system (which we've just paid $11k to upgrade...so I don't want to hear anyone here whining about how expensive LE systems are )


For what it's worth here is a post from a Digi Sales Specialist on another forum regarding the 001 support:

Now, the 001. This was released in 1999 and was a hugely successful piece of hardware for us. We continued releasing software updates until(...)version 6.4 this year. One of the main reasons the 001 had to be EOL'ed was due to the fact that it is inherently incompatible with PCI-X slots, as found in all new G5s and most modern PC's. We would love to be able to continue supporting all our hardware forever, but we simply don't have the engineering time and resources to be able to do it. Sadly this means that sometimes, we have to EOL hardware. You can still use your 001 with Pro Tools 6.4 on Panther, but due to incompatibilities with most modern machines, we won't be releasing new software updates for it. It's the same reason that you can't run Tiger on a 9600 - hardware companies sometimes just have to move on

 

[MessianicDreams]

I'll be honest: I skipped over a bunch of the last posts. Let me just say this:

The digi001 was released in Dec'1999. That's nearly 10 years ago. The major problem with it is that the PCI-X slot format has been largely abandoned by the computing industry. To expect a piece of computer hardware to be supported 10 years after its release is simply unreasonable. Digidesign quite smartly predicted the demise of the PCI-X format and decided that, for the benefit of its customers, it would focus its manpower on supporting formats which were no longer redundant.

Would you complain that a 10 year old graphics card is no longer supported? I don't think so. Digi is universally acknowledged as having very good customer support, and I don't think this case should be allowed to tarnish that reputation.

 

[tc4b]

I'll be honest: I skipped over a bunch of the last posts.

I'll be honest, I skipped over the rest of your post. If you're not willing to read others' posts, why should we read yours?