bigwillz24
New member
I'm trying to work on depth perception in my mixes. Can someone break down using the Haas effect to accomplish this?
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SouthSIDE Glen said:The Haas effect - or the proximity effect - stated in relation to depth of field says that if you have two consecutive sounds that are of equal volume level and come close enough togther in time (typically in the range of a few ms), the brain will perceive the first sound as being closer, even though the volumes are not different.
It's common to use this effect in mixing to help create texture where there otherwise may not be a lot of room or flexibiliy in the mix to do so. One familiar example may be the common competition between bass and kick. If you want to pull the kick out a little from the bass, but you don't nedcessarily want it any higher in the mix, you might slid the kick forward in time (or the bass back) by a few ms and let Hass trick you into thinking that the kick is louder than the bass.
Similar effects can be done with doubled guitar lines to make one line more dominant than the other.
The caveat to watch out for in those examples, however, is that playing with the timing of the rhythm relations can change the feel of the beat itself if your not careful. But done right, Haas is a nice tool to use to create some mixing space where it night not otherwise exist.
G.
I don't know if there's that direct or simple of a measured relatinship or not. I'd tend to think that it's not quite that straightforward; how wide and how far away does the stage sound to begin with? There's a lot of factors involved there.bigwillz24 said:Hey Southside...
So if 1ms is equal to approximately 1 ft. applying -1ms of delay move a bass foward/behind a kick 1 foot as if on a stage?
This is very similar to another one of my favorite "tricks", and that's the use of centered ghost mono; it's kina a combination of ghost mono and Haas and a great idea.Halion said:I use the Haas effect as a sort of super panner. Generally, if you take a mono track and pan in somewhere in the stereo image, it will still sound like a mono source coming from somewhere in between your speakers. If you use a small delay to create the Haas effect, it will sound (to me) like you are panning the mono track somewhere behind, and in between the speakers, with a much bigger difference three dimentionally. It doesn't actually sound like it's somewhere on the straight line between your speakers, more "out there".
SouthSIDE Glen said:What I like about ghost mono (hard-panning the identical signal L and R in order to creat a "ghost" mono image up the middle) is that it can be a great way to "fit" more in the middle that you can by just panning down the center. We all know (I hope) that when you stuck too much stuff in the center, it can build a big hairball of mush in the ceter. For reasons I don't fully understand, often times when you have no vacancy left in the center of the mix, ghost mono-ing is a slick way around getting something to fit neatly in the center without the same mudifying effect that you'd get by just sticking the track strainght up.
'Precedence' effect would be the word we're looking for there..SouthSIDE Glen said:The Haas effect - or the proximity effect - ...
Don't blame me if you've never heard of ghost monoing, my communist friend; it's a common technique that many engineers have been using for a long time.FALKEN said:WHHHAAAAAATTT???????
Glen. I think this piece is your highest accomplishment of mis-information to date. I give it 5/5.
Yeah, that IS correct. Thanks for that correction, a bad slip of the vocabulary on my part.mixsit said:'Precedence' effect would be the word we're looking for there..
Yes, yes. Or otherwise known in professional circles as a Boo boo.SouthSIDE Glen said:EDIT:
Yeah, that IS correct. Thanks for that correction, a bad slip of the vocabulary on my part.
G.
SouthSIDE Glen said:Too many "P" effects!
As far as the ghost image thing, I'm not sure exactly wht the deal is in the mechanics behind it, but it has something to do with the distribution of energy in the pan space, and how there is a difference in the way the energy is distributed in that space in a mixer or in a DAW between if you have a single mono track center panned and dual mono tracks hard panned.
Typically had panning mono is a Bozo no-no, to be sure. But when it comes to having to stack a lot of stuff in a limited pan space, using different pan methods - with delays like BW and Halion describe for an off-center ghost pan or without delays for a center ghost pan - can give the apparent effect of more "virtual headroom" to put stuff at that location in the L/R pan.
Try it out. Create a stereo mix with a lot of stuff happening at the center line. Keep adding tracks, one at a time, until you reach a point where you say, OK, that's just too much at that location, it's starting to sound like a hair ball even if you do try adjusting (non automated) faders accordingly to get it all to fit. Then back off that track that broke the center's back and replace it with dual mono tracks hard-panned L/R to synthesize a "false mono" image in the center. If done right - and if the previous tracks are not a bunch of mud anyway - you can find that the new synthed mono seems to "fit" easier with less of a hair ball effect than if you simply tried cramming the single mono track right down the center.
Same thing for using Haas presedence (NOT proximity ) to ghost pan left or right by throwing a slight delay on one side of the false mono to "pull" the apparent domination of the sound to one side or the other like Halion said. This is a handy trick when you need to "squeeze" or "fit" a sound into a location somewhere in the pan space other than center that might otherwise seem too crowded when you try doing it via standard mono track panning.
Like every other such "trick" in the engineering toolbag, there's a right time and right place to use them, and like I mention in previous posts about basic Haas, they don't always work as described, depending upon the conditions of the rest of the mix and the rest of the project. But when you find yourself in painted in just the right corner, the use of these sonic "slight of hand" tricks can give a great feeling of satisfaction and even sometimes a bit of a "wow" factor.
If you want to ride my ass because I tripped across this tip from someone more experienced than I before you did, Castro, go right ahead. But you had REALLY better know that you are standing on solid ground before you do. I'm not always right, and I do make mistakes (as mixsit has just shown ), and I'm glad when someone does correct me (like you have rightly done on occasion in the past). But I'm tired of your relatively inexperienced ass calling me a bullshitter every time I say something that's new to you or over your head.
G.
SouthSIDE Glen said:What I like about ghost mono (hard-panning the identical signal L and R in order to creat a "ghost" mono image up the middle) is that it can be a great way to "fit" more in the middle that you can by just panning down the center.