Problem with Sound Level

F

fadedstar

New member
Hey! :)

I'm having problems recording with my Delta 44. I can't bring the sound signal to an acceptable volume.

I'm using an Art tube preamp with a SM57. When I boost the signal with the Art tube at maximum level, the play meter in Sound Forge never exceed -9 dB.

If I plug my mic directly into the breakout box, the signal is so low i can't record anything.


I'm on Windows 2000.

Any idea about what i can do to fix that?

thanks boyz and girlz!

-david.
 
The recording signal level is established by your outboard equipment. I suspect you have might be something wrong with your preamp, or you're not using it properly. Or maybe you have the +4 db/-10 db switch on the Delta in the wrong position to match your upstream equipment.

You can't plug your mic directly into the breakout box. The sound card requires a line level signal, so the mic signal needs to be boosted first (as you apparently found out). That's what the preamp does.
 
Is your input recording level set high enough on the PC? (either thru Windows Mixer or Delta's mixer)
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This won't control the strength of the signal. That is controlled by the outboard equipment. Your mixer software can only measure the signal strength.
 
This won't control the strength of the signal. That is controlled by the outboard equipment.
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...true, but if the signal is strong enough, doesn't the sound card's input level affect the level it records at? (I'm not being a smart-ass, it's an honest question)
 
You can only control the monitor level of the inputs. It would seem the actual input level is fixed on most cards. Which makes sense since unless they have a preamp built in there is no way to boost the level.
 
The sound card's input level has no effect on the actual level being recorded? (I know, I'm beating a dead horse - look at me go).

I'm just feeling like an idiot right now because I would have bet anything that the opposite was true.

So if I understand correctly (die horsie, die), if I were to feed a healthy line level signal into the card/breakout box and cut the recording level way down in Windows mixer, I would still record a healthy signal?
 
Seanmorse79 said:
The sound card's input level has no effect on the actual level being recorded? (I know, I'm beating a dead horse - look at me go).

I'm just feeling like an idiot right now because I would have bet anything that the opposite was true.

So if I understand correctly (die horsie, die), if I were to feed a healthy line level signal into the card/breakout box and cut the recording level way down in Windows mixer, I would still record a healthy signal?
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I'm with Sean here in my confusion on this. I know that using the old cheapass SB style card in my weeny little machine, the sliders in the volume control have a direct effect on the level that gets recorded. If the "Rec" slide is all the way down, I get little to no signal. If it's all the way up, it's blasting to distortion, and the noise floor is sky-high (like -20dB!! The card sucks but does far better than that, noisewise!).

Now it does make sense that a card without a pre wouldn't be able to boost the signal. Is the slider perhaps passive, and if it's all the way up it lets the full signal pass through, and anything below that attenuates the signal?

I don't know the hows or whys, but I DO know that on the machine I speak of, the recording slider on the card mixer does have quite an effect on the strength of the recorded signal.

So, can someone enlighten me? ;)
 
I can't speak for all sound cards but that has been my experience with some of them. If it works like that on yours than you have your answer. ;)

If you think about it most audio devices do not have input level controls. Adding any extra circuitry there is usually redundant and would just degrade the signal a little more. Even if you do have a level control your best gain stage will be at unity with a proper level driving the input.
 
I don't know the hows or whys, but I DO know that on the machine I speak of, the recording slider on the card mixer does have quite an effect on the strength of the recorded signal.
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It doesn't work that way on my Delta 1010, but as you point out, maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Delta has no internal pre's. However, even with the SB Live, there are no pre's on the "line in" port, which I assume is where you are recording from.

Think of it this way. Any software (be it mixing software or recording software or whatever) can only work with the already digitized signal (i.e,, after the A to D conversion). If the signal is clipped when it is being converted to digital (which is where it's going to clip, right?) then there ain't nothing the mixing software can do about that. You can lower the software mixer fader all you want, you're still going to get a clipped signal, since the peak got lopped off when it got converted.

So I don't really see what sense having software input control would do. You have to control the signal that is hitting the converters, and software has no way to do that.

Now if you are talking about the "mic in" port on your Soundblaster, then perhaps the software mixer is simply controlling the gain on the preamp, in which case it could control the signal since the pre is prior to digitizing.
 
Both of you make sense. That seems like the way it should be. I compare it to the old Fostex R-8 I used to have - all of the levels are controlled with the mixer and what hits the tape hits the tape. That makes sense to me.

The thing is, I've had cheap soundcards that positively, without a doubt, react the way esactun said. The Recording input level did affect the gain of the recorded signal, and I'm fairly sure it didn't have any pre's in it (it was a $15 card).

I have a C-Port now, and I've never moved the recording level from 3/4, so I really can't say for sure how this one works until I test it (and I'm much too tired & lazy now).

In either case, it seems still to be a bit of an unsolved mystery. And my apologies to fadedstar for monopolizing the thread. If you're still having problems, please jump in.
 
I'm fairly sure it didn't have any pre's in it (it was a $15 card)
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Actually Sean, the $15 sound cards are the ones that are MOST likely to have pre's in them. The pre's in those cards are what allow you to use the $1.75 mic that comes with your computer.

For the time being I'm gonna agree with ecstatum and say that *if* the softare mixer does anything it can only attenuate the signal. I see no possible way for the mixer to boost the signal, since if it had that ability you wouldn't need external pre's in the first place. And I'm also gonna agree with Tex, regardless of the right answer just set it to unity and then forget it exists.

However, I am interested in what you find on your C-Port. Keep us posted.
 
Thanks dachay, Tex...

This makes me wonder though. It does make sense that the software mixer can't manipulate an audio signal prior to a/d conversion. So--is it possible then that the software mixer (with cards like mine and the ones SeanMorse79 has seen) are doing some DSP to the converted signal *before it hits the recording software*? Horrors! :) Then the trick will be finding what passes for unity on the mixer... I know on mine, turning the Rec slider all the way up (using the line, not the mic input, BTW), certainly *seems* to add gain to the signal-- it distorts in nasty digital fashion, and the noise floor comes up to my chin. I can get pretty clean, clear recordings with a far lower noise floor by lowering this slider.

Of course, this is all the trials and tribulations of cheap-ass sound cards.... but as my truck just up and died, forcing me to buy a car, it'll be a while until I get to Upgrade City... plus I'm pretty sure I'm still the weakest link in my chain. ;) I'm now really curious as to what exactly is happening to my sounds in that there card there.
 
So--is it possible then that the software mixers are doing some DSP to the converted signal
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You know the same thought had crossed my mind when this whole dialog started (great minds think alike :) ). However, then I started to think about the volume control knobs/sliders that control playback in my tracking software. Aren't they in essence doing the same thing (albeit on a signal that is going out, rather than coming in)? There certainly doesn't appear to be any dsp going on there - or is there, just not anything of a permanent nature.

If manipulating the playback volume is in essence applying "realtime dsp", then it's likely that's what is happening to the incoming signal in your case. The main difference, though, is on the incoming signal you are printing the dsp, where you wouldn't be on the playback signal.

:confused: Anyone wish to jump in and add to the confusion.

(And, David, I also apologize for monopolizing your thread. Sorry.)
 
:)

Thanks! Your first advice was the right one. I only had to select the -10dBu instead of the +4 . That's what happen when I neglect to read the manual.

At least my thread was used for another subject of conversation :)


thanks guys....


-david
 
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