preamp vs tube preamp : difference?

F

fadedstar

New member
Here's my basic question :


What is the differences between a *normal* preamp and a tube preamp?

In a more concrete way, how the preamp built in the small Behringer mixer MX602A is different to the Art Tube MP preamp, on the technical point of view (the way those preamps are built) and on the quality of the amplified signal.

Also, if I buy both MX602a and Art Tube MP and I make this configuration :

SM57 -to- Art Tube MP -to- MX602a -to- SBLive ,

is it possible *and* useful to amplify the mic signal twice or in this case, the MX602a would be only useful for his mixing capabilities?

that's it for now :)

-david.
 
The deal on inexpensive tube preamps......

SO... tube is all the rage, everything non-tube sounds bad and tube-ified everything sounds great. There are some very high-priced, excellent tube pres out there, and they sound amazing - and they'd better, at over 2-3K a pop!

The home studio market takes off and the amateurs hear from the pros that they all use these tube pres and we've all heard how good those recordings sound, so they want the same thing, but at a price they can afford! The truth is, those mega-dollar pres cost so much because it is damn expensive to create an excellent sounding tube preamp.

But, manufacturers being manufacturers, they'll "give the people what they want!" Especially if their market has a hard-on for anything that says "tube". So what does a manufacturer for the low to middle end do? He designs the middle of the road, basic solid-state pre, perfectly usable... THEN, adds a tube gain stage in parallel with the normal output, adding a dash of tube "color" to the signal. Does that make it a "tube" pre?? I don't think so... yes you get a coloration, that may even be beneficial to you, but you can't really call it a tube pre. If you pull the tube out of the circuit, the pre still works just fine(!), even though you've ranked what would normally be a crucial element out of the circuit! You would just simply lose the tube coloration portion of the signal.

The non-tube pres below the 1K mark are perfectly serviceable, and if you like the coloration of the low-cost "tube" pres, then by all means use it... just be aware that the low cost "tube" gear doesn't really give you an advantage over the non-tube stuff at that price range.

Bruce
 
The Behringer pres are really awful and the ART tube MP can charitably be described as grainy.The diificulty as Bruce said is getting quality at this price point.The Presonus stereo tube pre for about $150 is marginally better,however.
I would like to add to Bruce's rant about worshipping the tube god so blindly.Hopefully,this is a passing fad,like the "my CD is louder than you CD" pissing contest currently in vogue.

Tom
 
Hey Tom Hicks, I would like to hear some audio examples that support you opinion concerning those three preamps.

Wanna hear a "grainy" preamp in action?



Yup, I shamefully admit that I used budget preamps on this recording, most the ART, and the TL Audio Classic here and there. Excuse me for a sec while I hang my head here in shame...................:(

Okay, I am done.

Forget what all these dudes, the ones that always seem to have very specific opinions about stuff, but never seem to post examples of their work for you to listen to, have to say about budget mic pre's, or the relative value of "wannabe tube" pre's. Start using whatever you get and get to work, because I can assure you that most preamps made now are quite capable of producing really good results for your recording.

Just to show how little of a difference preamps really make, go to:

http://www.artistcollaboration.com/users/sonusman/MP3.html and start downloading songs. Those recordings run the gambit of preamps, from cheap to class A design. Here is the trick, you guys tell me which is which........I wanna hear what all you self describe "experts" in preamps have to really say.

fadedstar, YOU should take a listen to those mp3's. Bruce, and possible Tom have already heard the story of most of my work so they cannot listen to it with an open mind about the relative quality.

About half the those mp3's used the ART as the main preamp, the rest of the recordings include stuff done Oram, Focusrite, Drawmer, Mackie. The trick is, which was which dude? Can you really tell a difference?

Learn how to record and leave the relative quality questions for when you actually know what to listen for.

Good luck.

Ed
 
skip the Behringer...go from mic into the Art straight into the soundcard.....
 
ouch, Ed!
I'm just a home-wrecker and not a pro.But I sure don't appologise for having an opinion or being willing to share it.

Tom
 
That is all fine and good Tom. I am just asking you to back that opinion with something we can hear. I have been using the ART's since they FIRST came out (just about 5 years ago...). Tell me Tom, which of those songs on my MP3 page use it primarily and which are the covented class A's?

You can't tell can you? It SHOULD be obvious shouldn't it? I mean, half those songs on their "can charitably be described as grainy" right?

Sorry man, I can't let you off the hook until you can tell me which ones are the ART's. Hell, for that matter, you SHOULD be able to tell me exactly WHICH TRACKS use it too!!! Those tracks should sound grainier than the others.

Pick ANY song and list away. I am so sure it is obvious.....:rolleyes:

Gidge, it looks as though that he will want to "mix" some mic's together to possibly go to just one track or a stereo recording, thus the little mixer.

fadedstar, it is not always advantageous to run your signal through TWO preamps mainly because of noise issues. Another possibility of to use some Line In's on the none mic preamp channels on the console.

Good luck.

Ed
 
homey don't play that game

Sorry Ed
I'm not on any hook for you to let me off of.
I've read some of your posts and have found them interesting and informative. I do respect your professional expertise.You also have a hell of a chip on your shoulder.I don't think public forums are a place for personal acrimony,so this is my last post on this thread.Feel free to contact me personally if you feel the need.

Tom Hicks
3149 Waits
Fort Worth Tx 76109
817-927-7021
tomh@rhythmband.com
 
just wondering

Tom..is it "personal acrimony"??..you made a blanket statement, and Ed asked you to back up what you said. He may "have a chip on his shoulder" but what he's asking is on the level.

This is a really neat discussion about "tube" preamps.
 
Grainy?

Maybe you aint using your pre right. tube coloring should be used tastefully. try not to think of your pre as a fuzzbox.
 
fadedstar said:
What is the differences between a *normal* preamp and a tube preamp?
Click to expand...

Within their operating range (no clipping) high gain tube stages produce MUCH more distortion than solid state devices. The thing about tubes is they produce the kind of distortion that many people tend to like. They generate a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion (2 times, or one octave above, the original frequency) while suppressing higher harmonics , especially the odd ones (3, 5, 7, etc. times the original frequency).

Most people describe this particular recipe for distortion as "warm and musical".

Personally I would think it's better to record a more accurate track using a high linearity solid state preamp. You have more of the original source and less distortion work with. Then if you want to warm it up later by passing the signal through a vintage guitar amp or something, you have that option as well.

barefoot
 
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