Pre-amp questions

B

bucchild

New member
Hi everyone. I recently looked over some of the board and found a lot of great information. This place is great. I just registered today. I have a few concerns about preamps.

First off, I'll give you a brief rundown of what I'm using. I have a Roland VM 3100 Pro, using logic to record waves, but cool edit to edit/mix. I just got an alesis 3630 which I haven't even plugged in yet, but based on some of the threads I've read, I think I'm in comfortable situation to start playing around with it. I have a bunch of not incredible, but decent mics. I'm currently in the process of recording 2 projects, one of them being my own.

Would you advise my spending money on an inexpensive preamp or just going ahead and using the Vm 3100 Pro as my pre? I also know that the 3100 has 2 built in compressors, but I know that the 3630 will be a nice toy for live vocals, too.

Also, I was thinking of getting myself an EQ, what should I look at in the same price range of the 3630?

I consider myself an amateur, but I've played with everything enough to know a few things about my equipment. I've gotten to the point where I can record drums, guitars, and bass and I'm pleased with the outcome, but when I record vocals they seem to come out muffled no matter how I play with them. It may be that I have the wrong approach to EQ'ing vox, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
 
I'm not using monitors, I'm listening through headphones. I don't have the budget yet for monitors, and I figure headphones are better for the time being....considering the significant difference in price. I'm also not afraid to burn a mix to CD and play it on a few different stereos to see what kind of sound I get through them. Call me crazy, but I think that's a truer result than you'll ever get through monitors. Monitors may be the true recorded sound, but who else listens to music through monitors? Let's face it, even though monitors are best for hearing your recordings, once you have a finished product, it's going to people listening in cars, stereos, and boomboxes. None of which ever sound nearly as good as monitors.
 
bucchild said:
I figure headphones are better for the time being....Call me crazy, but I think that's a truer result than you'll ever get through monitors.
Click to expand...

:D :D :D

he he he.

Man, this board just keeps getting better and better.
 
IMO and in most others opinions you would be much better off investing in a pair of monitors than in a preamp at this point. I'm sure you can get by with the preamps on the Roland unit, but I'm not so sure how you can get along without some monitors.

Below is a link to an article by Blue Bear on why mixing with headphones is a bad idea:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/bvaleria/bluebear/articles/headphones.htm

BUT - if you have your heart set on just buying a preamp, alot of people rave about the FMR RNP (real nice preamp)

Happy recording !
 
bucchild said:
please don't edit out most of what I said in an attempt to make me look like an ass. thanks
Click to expand...


Dude, no offense or anything, but it doesn't look like you need any of my help for that. :D :D

Actually, most of what you said about the subject is fairly common for someone who's new to this sort of thing. But if you stick with recording and mixing, in time you'll grow out of it and you'll move on to monitors. So if you want to spare yourself a little bit in terms of the learning curve -- get yourself a pair of monitors before you worry about a mic pre.

I realize I'm coming off like I'm giving you a hard time, but understand I am only trying to help you out. You'll thank me for it couple years from now (whether or not you like my personality).
 
I'm not set on anything. I'm looking to improve vocals when I record them. I know my method at the time being is not the most convenient, but wasting maybe 10 CD-R's listening to different mixes through regular soundsystems is a lot cheaper than dropping a grand on a pair of monitors. It works for now...I listen closely to what comes through speakers and compare what I hear to what I heard through my headphones....I adjust accordingly, and try again. If the mix sounds better than it did the last time through, I took a step in the right direction. Sometimes I do go back and forth with this 10-12 times before I get a decent mix, but that's what, $5 worth of CD-R's??? I intend to get monitors when I have the funds, but it's not an option. I know that I can get a preamp for less than monitors. What I'm asking is if my VM 3100 acting as a preamp is better than investing in a separate preamp. Ultimately, I'd like to have monitors, a good preamp, and a rack full of toys, but I'm asking what I can do to improve my vocals without spending too much money. I don't need a separate EQ, my 3100 will suffice until I can afford it. And I'll never even get to the mixing stage without recording good vocal tracks.

I guess I put a lot into the first post. And this one, too. I want to improve my vocals. Should I invest in a preamp or might I just be EQ'ing it all wrong? I've practiced a lot with all of this, and playing around has gotten me to a point where I have a decent method for everything but vocals, even though it's a tedious and inconvenient method.
 
chess, I totally understand where you're coming from. maybe you misunderstood my point in the first place. I know monitors are the route to go. I intend to get some when I have the money. But at the moment, all I have is headphones and regular stereo systems to listen through.

What I'm saying about "true" sound is probably where I may have come off the wrong way. I know that good monitors are the only way to hear what you recorded in it's truest form. But true in the sense of final product is a regular soundsystem. If it sounds good through your home stereo, it's gonna sound good to the average listener, who will never hear anything through studio monitors.
 
bucchild said:
If it sounds good through your home stereo, it's gonna sound good to the average listener, who will never hear anything through studio monitors.
Click to expand...


EeeeeaaarrGGGHHHH ! ! ! !


Try again.

The only way in which this would hold true is providing everyone who listens to it is using the exact same stereo setup in the exact same room as yours.

Not likely.
 
chessrock said:
EeeeeaaarrGGGHHHH ! ! ! !


Try again.

The only way in which this would hold true is providing everyone who listens to it is using the exact same stereo setup in the exact same room as yours.

Not likely.
Click to expand...

If this were true, then what sounds good through your monitors will only sound good through a set of monitors in a similar room.

Using a few different environments and systems for reference are no comparison to monitors, you'll never get as good of a mix. But my point is that no mix will ever sound as good as it does through good monitors. Similarly, a mix sounding good on my home stereo sill only sound that good in the same environment. But if it sounds good on my home stereo, my car stereo, and even a cheap boombox, it'll probably sound good through most systems.

I got the idea from an atricle in a recording mag (I forget which one) about a year ago. The engineer said that a trick he learned was to listen to his mix through a boombox. The theory behind this was that if he got a mix to sound good through his monitors, and it still managed to sound good through speakers as crappy as a boombox, it's probably gonna sound okay anywhere.....not my theory, I just learned from it, and it's seemed to help me so far since I don't have monitors yet.
 
Hello. You're talking about a professional engineer with real monitors -- probably damn good ones -- who checks his mixes on a boom box for compatibility.

It's a little different from your non-monitor / headphone situation.

Besides, if your monitoring setup (monitors and the room) truly is good and do the job they're supposed to . . . then your mixes should sound better when you play them on other systems.

How would a good monitoring environment help your problem? Well, if you could hear your mixes properly, then you'd know what was wrong with your vocal tracks, and you'd have a better idea how to address them -- instead of guessing at the problem or coming on to a board like this asking if it's your preamps.

I'm not arguing with you any more, bucchild. The more guys there are like you out there, the wider the gap is going to be between those with shitty-sounding stuff and those with good-sounding stuff. And thus, the greater the market there is for the good stuff.
 
chessrock said:
...if your monitoring setup (monitors and the room) truly is good and do the job they're supposed to . . . then your mixes should sound better when you play them on other systems.
Click to expand...

That's exactly my point. What you hear a mix through doesn't mean your mix will only sound good through a similar environment.

I don't mix in this manner, I just check my mixes through different systems, since I can't afford monitors and have to mix through headphones until I can afford monitors.

a little note: I'M NOT MIXING YET!!! Even in Blue Bear's article on mixing with headphones it says that headphones are a good tool for tracking, which I am doing right now. I know I'm in for a treat when it comes to mixing.

Regardless. I came here for help. I can make my vocals sound better without spending a grand on monitors, and I was hoping that someone would actually offer me that advice. I know I'm inexperienced. That's why I came here for help. I know that my equipment isn't the best by any means, and I KNOW I NEED MONITORS. I only get one paycheck a week, and I can't devote it all to my studio. Maybe I was wrong in thinking that I could get a decent mic preamp for less than monitors. In which case, could I make my vocals sound good without my preamp?
 
bucchild said:
a little note: I'M NOT MIXING YET!!! Even in Blue Bear's article on mixing with headphones it says that headphones are a good tool for tracking, which I am doing right now.
Click to expand...
...and this is what I was going to get at when I first asked you the monitor question. Monitors are probably even more valuable for recording than they are for mixing. How do you know if you recorded the correct sound if you can't hear it correctly? And you can't go burn a CD and test it on 3 stereos every time you move a mic 3 inches when you are trying to set the sound in the first place. You have to hear all of that in real time.

When Blue Bear said that headphones were great for tracking, he was talking about the performer wearing them so the sound doesn't bleed into the mic. He wasn't talking at all about the recording engineer wearing them to verify that he's recording the propper sound.

So... My advise right now for improving you recordings (again, not even talking about mixing) is for you to forget the preamp and get monitors. I know monitors aren't "sexy", and they certainly aren't any "fun" like a preamp might be, but they will make the biggest difference possible in the quality of your recordings, no matter what the end-listener ends up hearing the recording on.
 
They are right man. You got to do it. I passed up a butload of cool gear I could have bought. You know what I got instead? A butload of rigid fiberglas, and a whoopass pair of monitors.
 
Okay....thanks....this is helpful.

But I can't afford monitors. If I can't wait until I have the money to buy monitors, how might I improve my vocals even though I'm listening through headphones. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought maybe I could get a decent pre for a couple hundred bucks. The cheapest I've seen monitors that seemed acceptable was $600 a pair. Maybe you could point me in the direction of cheaper monitors that would still be worth buying....

But I was looking for suggestions on where I could possibly start to improve the vocals, having a tight budget to work with.

My point in the beginning was to see if I could make decent vocals without buying a pre....not asking what to buy next. I know I need monitors, and I'm hoping that for a while at least, that's all I need....because I'd love to start saving towards them.
 
HangDawg said:
They are right man. You got to do it. I passed up a butload of cool gear I could have bought. You know what I got instead? A butload of rigid fiberglas, and a whoopass pair of monitors.
Click to expand...

rigid fiberglass???
 
Well, the easiest thing you can do to improve vocals is find the right room. Just walk around your house and sing. You'd be surprised. Your voice (or whoever's voice) will sound noticably better or worse in different rooms, and that will come through on the recording. When searching for rooms, don't forget to check bathrooms and closets and hallways. Every single space you have access to, check it out.
 
It seems all wrong at first, but being able to hear what the hell is going on has made the biggest improvement for me (I'm very new at this as well). It's really that simple. I'm pretty sure you can get some decent monitors for less than $600. I know the Behringer Truths are $300 for the pair. You won't get much preamp for $300 and the monitors would do more good at this point.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top