Powerful hooks that overshadow the song

grimtraveller said:
I don't know for sure that it's barryc, others may do. I'm not clued up on that stuff. I actually liked barryc and thought he contributed a lot though he got a little intense with Greg. But people do.
But I know for sure that Yuppie is Murt and some other alias that chili deleted in a thread that got [temporarily ?] closed on Saturday. I know that because of the way he's answered across three threads, cross referencing and taking on board all three personas as though it were the same person.
It's amusing in parts, but in truth, it's actually embarrassing. I don't know whether it's a good thing or not that I can feel embarrassed for someone.
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I agree that it's embarrassing. I'm just going to ignore him.

Going back to the topic, the power of the melody in hooks {and other parts of the song} is what really grabs. I've often observed that while I love lyrics and enjoy discovering their meanings, the same songs with the same melodic delivery could be about harvesting bananas and I'd still love them.
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I think, to an extent, you're talking about two separate things. A good hook is both lyrical and musical. However, really good melody can make up for a world of bad lyrics. I think, though, the latter is truer in the pop world than in other genres, e.g. jazz and, of course, my field of musical theater.
 
German Pete said:
No punk rock drummer can talk about anybody speaking about music. I can flex, I can talk about lyrics or music, in this case I was speaking of lyrics, those lyrical hooks meant everything to those songs.

And Irish pete, you and your buh byes, well say hello on your youtube page. Your need to be all powerful is not good. spot on the sun, strange looking guy too. But play that way irish Pete, ill comment over there
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Lol @ this non-songwriting moron.
 
And Irish pete, you and your buh byes, well say hello on your youtube page. Your need to be all powerful is not good. spot on the sun, strange looking guy too. But play that way irish Pete, ill comment over there
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Cool, you would be the first person in a long time to go to my youtube page. I don't even know how to log in anymore there.
 
...and a HUGE ego.

I'm mostly amused at his attempts :laughings: to "disguise" who he is by using up all these creative forum names.
(I guess when you are a master songwriter, you can easily be creative in that way.)

He might as well just keep re-registering as barry c1, barry c2, barry c3, barry c4.....etc.
 
miroslav said:
...and a HUGE ego.

I'm mostly amused at his attempts :laughings: to "disguise" who he is by using up all these creative forum names.
(I guess when you are a master songwriter, you can easily be creative in that way.)

He might as well just keep re-registering as barry c1, barry c2, barry c3, barry c4.....etc.
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Seriously, all of this because that loser can't handle being wrong.
 
miroslav said:
...and a HUGE ego.

I'm mostly amused at his attempts :laughings: to "disguise" who he is by using up all these creative forum names.
(I guess when you are a master songwriter, you can easily be creative in that way.)

He might as well just keep re-registering as barry c1, barry c2, barry c3, barry c4.....etc.
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Barry C3PO... he's like a robot... :laughings:
 
miroslav said:
...and a HUGE ego.

I'm mostly amused at his attempts :laughings: to "disguise" who he is by using up all these creative forum names.
(I guess when you are a master songwriter, you can easily be creative in that way.)

He might as well just keep re-registering as barry c1, barry c2, barry c3, barry c4.....etc.
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Barry Island?
 
grimtraveller said:
Over the last few weeks I've been hunting down as many singles as I can remember from the 50s to the present day and in the course of this, I've become even more aware than I had been before of the power of the hook or catchy, memorable chorus. Time and time again I'd find that I remember a song from my youth, primarily by it's chorus and in doing so, realize that I didn't really remember or know the verse or middle or bridge or whatever.
I'd known this for years without really ever focusing on it until I came to Tina Turner's "What's love got to do with it ?"
For some reason, that one song brought everything into sharp focus because it struck me that I knew the chorus really well but if you'd held a gun to my head and said "Sing the rest of it or die !", my will would be being executed sooner than I'd intended.....
I've found others to be exactly the same, with hymns, classical pieces, rock and pop singles, jazz pieces, album tracks....
So two things, when writing songs, are you consciously aware of searching for and using hooks and what are some of those songs that you actually really like or remember because of the hook rather than the song itself, if there are any ?
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Good point. I don't think I can recall a single thing other than the chorus in "What's Love Got To Do With It?" either. If I'm honest, I kind of wish I couldn't recall the chorus either...

I've unfortunately been in places before where karaoke and singstar type stuff has been going on and it amazes me how often these huge songs that everybody knows get picked, only to find that the verse gets mumbled along with because nobody knows the tune or the meter of it. So I agree with you - for whatever reason, the verse often ends up just being an unmemorable placeholder to separate the choruses in these big hooked songs. Maybe it's so that the writers don't want to overshadow this big chorus, maybe it's because the only spark of inspiration in the songwriting process came with that chorus hook, maybe it's because they're writing to a bit of a template which involves low key verse and big chorus, maybe it's bad songwriting/laziness? Maybe it's a different reason each time and there's no overarching pattern, I dunno?
 
Geez, I'm glad a few people quoted barry so I could at least see what I missed since yesterday afternoon!

The 'quarantine' of new forummembers is a good idea, but I think the traffic is too high here, ti woudl become a nightmare for the mods.
 
mjbphotos said:
Geez, I'm glad a few people quoted barry so I could at least see what I missed since yesterday afternoon!

The 'quarantine' of new forummembers is a good idea, but I think the traffic is too high here, ti woudl become a nightmare for the mods.
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Worse than having to ban the same guy 10 times a day every day?
 
Sorry if I'm intruding on the Barry bashing, just wanted to respond to Grim's original post.

As a writer, I'm a believer in the power of hooks - and I normally don't feel I've written a strong song if I have not come up with a chorus that locks into the song title and has a "catchy" melody (a "hook"). I have often walked away from a song that had a strong chord structure or a solid arrangement - simply because I did not feel I had achieved a strong enough hook. Often, I come up with a lyrical hook (title) first, write a chorus for the lyrical hook (hopefully with a strong, catchy, easy to sing melody) and then develop the rest of the song.

Now I personally think that a song can (and should) contain not only a melodic hook, but ideally a lyrical hook as well. Grim's reference to "What's Love Got To Do With It" is a good example, the melody is easy to lock into and the phrase itself a a great lyrical hook. Going back many years - I'm Henry the VIII (Herman's Hermits) is a great example of a hook that ties in the song title, has an easy to remember lyrical hook and very easy to sing melody. Naturally, there are many Beatles songs that have strong lyrical and melody hooks - and almost all the writers from the Tin Pan Alley days and the Brill Building days followed that classic approach.
 
irish Peete said:
Alot of yapping, very little doing, instead of discussing hypothetiicals and theories all day long, why not write...all day long? is it cause you just like to hear yourselves speak/write?
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Well, this is where some of us come after we've done our writing, recording and mixing. It's an adjunct to our lives and hobbies, not our raison d'etre.
 
This is a little ambitious, but I've been learning how to play everything number 1 hit since 1958 and writing down the chord progressions using Roman numeral analysis. Needless to say, the majority of songs are I, IV, V, vi chords and I'm getting very bored! There's already many posts on the four typical chord progressions, so all I'm doing is reinventing the wheel - but it does help my ear training. And if a student ever needs to learn a song, I should have it down for them (unfortunately, I don't always trust the tabs/chords on those guitar tab sites).

But more important... if most songs have the same progressions, hooks are the most important aspect of a song. That hook can be rhythmic or melodic and in the harmony or lyrics. Generally it seems like it all depends on the style where the hook is going to be. So many rap songs have hooks in the samples, but I can't remember the "melody" of the lyrics at all. Though the content of the lyrics might be memorable. I remember when Guy Sigsworth told Imogen Heap (Fru Fru) that she could write any lyrics she wanted as long as the words "love" was in the first 30 seconds of the song to hook the listener. I forgot the percentage, but a majority of the hits have the lyric "love" to connect with listeners. A quick google search resulted in 60% of songs deal with sex or love.

I've always taught my students to start with an amazing melody - something you can't get out of your head. Then build the chords from the melody. Many students just play a cool chord progression and their melody is really lame. And it shows, you can have a lame chord progression but an amazing melody to make a hit song.

I'd like to find out the science to developing amazing hooks. When I write, it all comes from my years of learned experience and not from a songwriting coach/teacher (though I had some great composition teachers in my undergrad - and I believe that really helped my pop writing skills since the principles are the same). There's plenty of resources out there, I just haven't gotten around to reading them.... Do you guys know of good resources for writing hooks?
 
Greg_L said:
There isn't one. You either got it or you don't.
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I am going to have to agree with this point. A 'hook' or as us old school guy tend to call it-'a chorus', is hit or miss. It either works for you, or it works for others. In the end, who really cares...If you like it, then it is good for you. If others like it, then you probably play in a band that appeals to teen girls. lol!

Seriously, I don't really get the discussion of how you write. It should come from personal experience and shiz. Whatever happens happens because it is what you decide is working for the song. It seems that is the declining factor in music. Individuals trying to make something 'be' like something else by giving it the label of 'chorus/hook' just takes away from just writing a good friggen song...

Write something that moves you. If someone else takes it personally, then you have done something that is special to them. Nothing more really. Enjoy the moment either way.

I just went all Barry on you asses! :)
 
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