Power trio to 8 tracks of tape: how would you lay it out?

Whoopysnorp

Whoopysnorp

New member
In the future, when I do my next serious recording of my band, I would like to record the basic tracks to my Tascam ATR-60, then move that material over to my DAW to overdub stuff like keyboards and vocals. The basic tracks would probably be a basic power trio setup. I like to mic drums with a stereo pair overhead and close mics on everything (including top and bottom snare mics). Assuming a basic five-piece kit, that is eight microphones. I also like to use two mics on my guitar amp and pan them when it's mixing time. For bass I usually just take my amp's DI signal. So we're looking at a total of eleven sources. I would obviously need to keep the kick, snare, bass, and both guitar mics on their own tracks, for mixing flexibility down the road. That leaves three tracks. On two of those, I would do a stereo thing with the overheads and the toms. What do I do with the last available track? The best option I've come up with is to put the floor tom by itself there (so I would just have the overheads and rack toms submixed together).
 
Have you considered pulling back on your number of drum mics, and perhaps changing the position of your stereo drum mics? Your ability to do this will vary on the skill and style of your drummer, but this could save you some tracks.

As for your guitar, have you considered recording a single DI track, and then re-miking it once it's time to mix down? This will take additional channels, but save you a single track, which could make all the difference for your 8 track setup. I assume your amp and cab combination is stereo... you may also be able to save a track and imitate this sound using some light stereo chorus during mix down, and accomplish this by miking only one of the speakers.

Lastly, if you already own a DAW, and want to do work on both, you may want to look into a synchronizer to use a combination of both the Tascam and the DAW. In this way, you don't need to "bounce" to digital, but can still gain additional tracks. The Tascam can be the master with the DAW slaving through a combination of SMPTE converted to MTC for the DAW. I think JL Cooper made a box that will do this, I know the Tascam Midiizer can do it from personal experience. If you decide to go this route, you'll want to keep stereo tracks on the like machine due to tonal and phasing differences. So, you wouldn't want to have drum mix left on the ATR and drum mix right on the DAW.

-MD
 
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Hadn't yet considered synchronization...that is a can of worms I may or may not be ready to get into at this time.

I have done a lot of experimentation with different drum miking configurations and I find that for the sound I want to get and the style I work in, I always want close tom mics, no exceptions. Ditto with hitting the snare top and bottom.

I don't have a stereo guitar setup, but I find that using a combination of a dynamic and a large diaphragm condenser on a speaker--or better yet, two different speaker types in the same cab--allows me to get a nicely spread-out, 'huge' guitar sound without the need for doubling, which I like to avoid because a) it restricts your ability to toss off fills and little one-time things that would be hard to recreate properly in the double and b) I think it sounds kind of cheesy. I'd prefer to just get the signal recorded right away, since with this configuration the bassist, the drummer, and the guitarist (that's me) would all be playing together.

I've been thinking about it for some time and it seems to me like the best way to do what I'm describing is to lay out the tracks as I've described, with the overheads and rack toms grouped together as a stereo pair and the floor tom on its own. My logic there is that the only pieces I lose the ability to adjust in the mix after the fact are the rack toms, and if I'm careful with how I set my levels and phase before recording, I can live with that (I always find that as long as the close mic signal is there, I have a few dB of leeway with how loud it actually is). However I am open to other suggestions...even though I seem to have shot down all of yours. ;)
 
seems to me like you already had this figured out.

5 tracks seems like plenty to get a drum kit.

bleed from the close mics on the toms when you are not playing them really bothers me, so I wouldn't want that in my overs, unless you can gate them out... thats just my preference anyway.

If it were me, I would probably put all of the toms on one track and lose the bottom snare mic. you can pan the toms around pretty easily in a DAW.

no matter how you do it, you end up sacrificing something.

I record like this all the time. At first, I considered trying to sync the deck to my DAW, but it just doesn't seem like its worth the time and effort to get sync boxes, stripe a track, etc... Its so much easier to dump tracks to DAW and do the overdubs in the box. I don't think there is much difference in sound quality between analog tape tracks recorded to/then played back from DAW or played back directly from the tape. Analog mixing/EQ vs plug-ins? that is another story...
 
I'd just...

I'd just simplify things down to the basics:

1-kick mic,
1-snare mic,
2-overheads (or under-kit r/l mics),... (total: 4-tracks for drums),...
1-guitar mic, (alt: multi-mics or mic/line blended sound and bussed together down to 1 track),
1-bass mic, (alt: multi-mics or mic/line blended sound and bussed together down to 1 track),
2-mics for vocals onto separate tracks,...

= 8 tracks live down to tape!!!!!!!!

Unless you have 3 singers (Hansen/Jonas Bros), I think that should cut it.:eek:;)

I think for 8-track you have to scale down your ideas of what needs to be separated onto it's own track. If you wanna go back to DAW-land, then you can load all the sounds onto separate tracks that you want, 'til your eyes pop out, but for live work in 8-track analog you have to work within your limits.

F/I, if I were to be so ambitious as you about multi-mic'ing each and every drum, I'd likely mix the overall kit to stereo, with kick and snare remaining separate,... again,... using only 4 tracks for drums. Any other multi-mic'ing of drums, such as top/bottom snare mics or multiple kick mics, I'd also buss sounds together down to their own individual kick/snare tracks.

Same for multiple sources on guitars/bass or other instrumental tracks: buss them together on the front end and record down to 1 track.

This scenario is more mixer-intensive on the front end than track-intensive on the back end.

Sometimes I think people who were trained or raised on DAW recording are a bit spoiled in this regard. (Yes, I said it).

No offense, of course, but DAWs tend to lead you to placing a gazillion sounds down to tracks to do all the mixing work in "post". Free standing analog recording's not like that. I think you're seeing that point in action with this project. However, for stereo panning of guitars and such, this can also be done in "post" with effects loops, if u wanna go that way.

I admire you for hopping into analog wholeheartedly, like you did.

Thanx & good luck, Whoop.:eek:;)

PS: I don't think you're "sacrificing" anything in the above scenario. I do a lot of 8-track work and that's my 2¢, but take this advice with a grain of salt, 'cause I've only been doing this for over 25 years. (Heh).:eek:;)
 
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Reel, I think my idea is basically the same as yours, except I need to use two tracks for guitar to keep the ability to have stereo down the road, I don't plan on doing vocals to tape, and the floor tom gets its own track simply because it's left over.
 
Okay, we may be on the same page with that, but...

pls catch my latest edits for further details and clarity.

PS: Where will the vocal tracks end up???:eek:;)

Never mind! I can assume you'd record the band "live" to tape onto 8-tracks, then dump the whole thing simultaneously to 8-tracks in DAW and finish up.

That sounds reasonable enough, though it's an afterthought for me 'cause I'm not a DAW person.

Then again,... that's not really "Power Trio Live Down to Tape", is it?

Trick Question!!!

Best,
Dave
 
I hate to ask this but what do you mean by stereo for the guitar? For a power trio? Stick a 57 in the speaker and go. One or two overhead for drums one snare mic and one kick.
 
Hi Herm! Thanx for chiming in!

Pls catch my edit that says fancy stereo panning of guitar tracks & such could be done in "post" with efx loopz.

Thx again.:eek:;)

PS: Just MO, but I don't think floor tom is important enough to warrant it's own track, when that track could possibly be used to more utility on something else!
 
It's worth trying the Glen Johns or / Recorderman (plenty of articles on the net) techniques for the stereo kit, that'll pick up the floor toms OK. Use Snare & Bass drum mics to flesh out the sound of the kit.
 
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