Playback level
- Thread starter Monsoon
- Start date
Compared to what?
Maybe it's everything else with levels that are obscenely high.
Ok, so now that's the norm.
Get ready to learn how to remove all of your dynamics. That my friend is the trade off.
Step one is use a peak limiter to get rid of the worst of the stray peaks. Work down from there. Use compression to generally compact. Either can be done on the tracks and/or on the mix.
Got L2?
Maybe it's everything else with levels that are obscenely high.
Ok, so now that's the norm.
Get ready to learn how to remove all of your dynamics. That my friend is the trade off.
Step one is use a peak limiter to get rid of the worst of the stray peaks. Work down from there. Use compression to generally compact. Either can be done on the tracks and/or on the mix.
Got L2?
Monsoon
New member
Compared to radio/commercial cds. Example: I'll be in my car, listen to the radio. Levels are what they are. Pop in a cd, levels pretty much same as when I was listening to the radio - don't really need to mess around with the volume knob. Pop in a cd with my mixdown on it, I have to crank the volume knob all the way up to get to the same volume at which the radio and commercial cds were just playingSo, you're saying I should look into compression? Another newbie warning: is that typical? Do most people work compression into the mixes? And if so, is it usually applied via software, or through a hardward compresser installed in the the recording chain?
dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
Monsoon said:
Yes, it's typical. Assuming you have tracked properly, the two-track final mix is usually compressed during the mastering stage to bring the mix up to commercial levels (although commercial levels these days generally means it is overcompressed. Hence mixits warning about removing all your dynamics.). It can be done either with software or hardware.
Monsoon
New member
dachay2tnr said:
Ok. Well, I have a very simple, beginner's setup. Mic, to a DMP-3 preamp, an M-Audio 2496 sound card installed in a Dell computer. Using Sonar 3. So, after I've laid all my tracks (without compression), what then? There are a couple of included compression FX. Do I apply those to all the tracks, and then export the audio with the compression applied? Or should I invest in something like the FMR VNC and stick that after the preamp in the recording chain for when I'm laying the tracks? I've read opinions elsewhere on this formum that compression during laying the tracks is best for if you really already know what you're doing (which is obviously not where I am, yet).
some basic rules of compression i adhere to. i use it sparingly,
and for individual tracks only when there are wide variances between soft and loud. there are other alternatives as well. if - in a track you have
a "too soft area" compared to the rest of the track. just copy and paste that one soft area to a new blank track and bring up the fader. this will effectively bring up the volume of the soft piece. or alternatively you could hilite the "soft area" and bring its volume up if your software lets you do that. having done your mix and you find its too low in level. you can
use a comp/lim plug in to increase the apparent loudness of the mix and redo the mixdown. just watch you dont clip your digital 0db mark in your software.
peace.
and for individual tracks only when there are wide variances between soft and loud. there are other alternatives as well. if - in a track you have
a "too soft area" compared to the rest of the track. just copy and paste that one soft area to a new blank track and bring up the fader. this will effectively bring up the volume of the soft piece. or alternatively you could hilite the "soft area" and bring its volume up if your software lets you do that. having done your mix and you find its too low in level. you can
use a comp/lim plug in to increase the apparent loudness of the mix and redo the mixdown. just watch you dont clip your digital 0db mark in your software.
peace.
crosstudio
New member
since you mentioned that you are using Sonar3, if you have a soft patch as manning1 described, you would just create a track volume envelope and bring up the volume for that section.
if you have Sonar3, then you also have Ultrafunk, the ultrafunk compressor is pretty darn good, and have a built in look-ahead limiter that will keep you from getting nasty pops as a result of doing over 0db in digital.
if you have Sonar3, then you also have Ultrafunk, the ultrafunk compressor is pretty darn good, and have a built in look-ahead limiter that will keep you from getting nasty pops as a result of doing over 0db in digital.
dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
I don't think I would recommend the RNC unless you are having trouble recording at decent levels to begin with. This might happen with a uneven vocalist, or a cheap bass guitar, etc. The RNC could help get a more even signal, and this allow you to raise the recording level a bit. HOWEVER, remember that anything applied via the hardware recording chain will be printed to the track FOREVER. No going back.
More likely a better approach for you would be to use software compression on the already recorded tracks. AND ONLY ON THOSE THAT NEED IT. Sometimes you may have one track that has transient peaks that are causing clipping and limiting your overall mix volume. Look at the individual tracks for clues in the waveforms, and also look to see where your clip light is coming on. If you find you are clipping on the 2 beat of the 8th measure, take a look at the tracks at that sport to see what is going on. You might simply need to slap a volume envelope on one track at that spot.
After the above, then yes, you export the track WITH the compression. Do not apply it destructively. Use it realtime. It will be applied to the 2-track when you export.
Then finally, you will probably add some compression to the overall two-track as part of the final mastering of the song. If you don't have a mastering program, you probably want to import the 2-track back into a new Sonar project.
Cakewalk/Sonar does not supply much in the way of quality compression plugins. The exception (from what I hear) is the Sonitus stuff that came with Sonar Producer Edition.
You might want to invest in some quality software compressors, and you certainly want to start reading/learning about compression. This is where a lot of the "commercial" volume comes from (too much so in many people's minds).
crosstudio
New member
Qwerty:
is that true in all cases? i've had a few tracks that went over 0db when recording (in Sonar2 using a Frontier Design Wavecenter), but the audio that crossed zero sounded fine once i pulled it down (graphically).
In sonar there is a setting that clips overs, so maybe that has something to do with it.
is that true in all cases? i've had a few tracks that went over 0db when recording (in Sonar2 using a Frontier Design Wavecenter), but the audio that crossed zero sounded fine once i pulled it down (graphically).
In sonar there is a setting that clips overs, so maybe that has something to do with it.
Qwerty
New member
I have seen the same thing myself - in fact, my sound card comes with a DSP effects section that includes a compressor.... For the first six months that I had it, I had convinced myself that as I had set the compressor on the sound card to a ratio of 10:1 with a 0.8 threshold, then I was effectively peak-limiting the sound while tracking.
The problem -- that the signal was clipping at the A/D convertor level prior to being passed to the DSP chip -- I only discovered when I tried to record a slap bass line.
Because of the shape of the slap 'spike' in the waveform, there was something about it that was actually audible. I then got all concerned and went back to look at the wave form displays of everything else I had recorded.
With a really critical ear, I could hear some weird stuff in a lot of similar type peaks.
If I now compare a waveform that I have recorded and that has been peak limited externally, (ie. prior to the A/D conversion), it has a more rounded shape around that 0db level, compared to the harsh, 90 degree angle across the top of the waveform on the older recordings that had clipped the 0db limit.
So - I think the answer to your question, "Is that true in all cases?", is yes. But, I don't think you will actually hear the majority of those cases -> it seems massively dependent upon the type of signal being recorded.
My example is ONLY correct when talking about stuff that has clipped on the way into Sonar, not stuff that is now clipping based upon other FX or level settings once it actually is inside Sonar.
In the first instance your envelope method shouldn't work, in the second, it should.
At least, that's how I understand it... Feel free to correct me!
Ciao,
Q.
The problem -- that the signal was clipping at the A/D convertor level prior to being passed to the DSP chip -- I only discovered when I tried to record a slap bass line.
Because of the shape of the slap 'spike' in the waveform, there was something about it that was actually audible. I then got all concerned and went back to look at the wave form displays of everything else I had recorded.
With a really critical ear, I could hear some weird stuff in a lot of similar type peaks.
If I now compare a waveform that I have recorded and that has been peak limited externally, (ie. prior to the A/D conversion), it has a more rounded shape around that 0db level, compared to the harsh, 90 degree angle across the top of the waveform on the older recordings that had clipped the 0db limit.
So - I think the answer to your question, "Is that true in all cases?", is yes. But, I don't think you will actually hear the majority of those cases -> it seems massively dependent upon the type of signal being recorded.
My example is ONLY correct when talking about stuff that has clipped on the way into Sonar, not stuff that is now clipping based upon other FX or level settings once it actually is inside Sonar.
In the first instance your envelope method shouldn't work, in the second, it should.
At least, that's how I understand it... Feel free to correct me!
Ciao,
Q.
dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
Querty - you are essentially correct. However, I have encountered several different definitions regarding what exactly is clipping. Most things I have read state that you do not have a clip unless you have 3 successive samples reach 0db or above. Therefore, you can have a single sample exceed 0db and technically it would not be considered a clip.
Also, not all clips will be audible. And, it is my feeling that the trip lights in Sonar are set a little on the conservative side. I have had the clip light go off without actually having a clip in the recording material.
However, to your point, once a signal has exceed 0db and has been converted (A to D), that will be forever printed in the signal. This is because there is no way to digitally represent a signal 0db or higher. You can reduce the gain all you want afterwards, but you can't recreate what ain't there.
Also, not all clips will be audible. And, it is my feeling that the trip lights in Sonar are set a little on the conservative side. I have had the clip light go off without actually having a clip in the recording material.
However, to your point, once a signal has exceed 0db and has been converted (A to D), that will be forever printed in the signal. This is because there is no way to digitally represent a signal 0db or higher. You can reduce the gain all you want afterwards, but you can't recreate what ain't there.