piano/keys and acoustic guitar- general rules on position in the mix?

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Brohnis

New member
Heyyy there

My guess is that its down to what sound you're after but generally speaking, is there a 'norm' for where piano and rythm acoustic guitar should be?

Should you put one left and one right? Both in the centre with the rhythm section?
Double up everything and have both left and right?
Or something else...?

Thanks!
 
Brohnis said:
Heyyy there

My guess is that its down to what sound you're after but generally speaking, is there a 'norm' for where piano and rythm acoustic guitar should be?

Should you put one left and one right? Both in the centre with the rhythm section?
Double up everything and have both left and right?
Or something else...?

Thanks!
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There's just not a general rule here...the context of the music, arrangement, and other instrumentation play a huge role. Use your ears for this, not rules per se.
 
TeyshaBlue said:
There's just not a general rule here...the context of the music, arrangement, and other instrumentation play a huge role. Use your ears for this, not rules per se.
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Following on from that, it's one of the great mysteries of mixing how something can just seem so right and natural how you place it. Then you try it again in another song and it doesn't fit. For sure, there are trends and sometimes a particular instrument may end up in a particular place more often than not. But really, unless you're just rewriting the same song over and over, it helps to bring all the instruments and voices up together and play around and see what you come up with. Sometimes, actually removing an element turns out to be the key that pulls the song together.......hard as that is !
 
That's a very subjective question. It's a song-by-song decision that is driven by the other elements in a given mix.

What kind of music are you talking about? Is it sparse, guitar/piano music w/vocal or fuller production mixes?

If I had just acoustic guitar, piano and voice the placement would probably be totally different than if I had several other elements also in the mix.
I would maybe start with them out L-R...but that's just so I could get an idea of how it's working based on what I was hearing in my head during the pre-production planning.

It sounds cliché…but just use your ears to make the final decision.
 
What I can't really work out is in some old songs how the drums are all left, the vocals right...and the song sounds great...maybe it's just a good song!
 
Yea I kind of figured you would say that. Kind of relieved as well!

It's nice that a lot of this recording lark is just 'whatever sounds best to you'.

I like that!
 
Monkey Allen said:
What I can't really work out is in some old songs how the drums are all left, the vocals right...and the song sounds great...maybe it's just a good song!
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When stereo recording started they didn't have pan pots (panoramic potentiometers), just three-position switches on each channel. They could put things to the left, to the right or just centered. In those days the convention was to put the rhythm section on one side, the "color" instruments on the other and the vocals down the center, or some variation on that theme (like vocals right as you said). They also had very few channels on their mixers, commonly four, and they'd set up the session with players divided into sections, each with a single mic assigned to one of the three stereo positions. So you might have the piano, drums and bass on one side of the room with one mic going to the left track, a string section with one mic going to the right, backup singers with one mic also to the right and the lead singer with one mic going to both left and right (centered).
 
Yeah I know that...but you don't often hear it like that these days right...those old songs...against all odds...against everything a mixer would do these days....had those drums all the way left songs sounding great...completely 'not weird' to hear the drums all left and the vocals all right. Convention states these days that the kick must be down the centre, like the bass...and off we go...
 
Monkey Allen said:
Yeah I know that...but you don't often hear it like that these days right...those old songs...against all odds...against everything a mixer would do these days....had those drums all the way left songs sounding great...completely 'not weird' to hear the drums all left and the vocals all right.
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Sounds pretty weird to me when I have heard that stuff.


Monkey Allen said:
Convention states these days that the kick must be down the centre, like the bass...and off we go...
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It's not convention just recreating real life. Does the bass come from the left at a gig or hit you in the chest from seemingly everywhere ( hence centre ). Same with Mvox. The rest can be panned how you see fit, but its mostly reflecting the sound stage.
 
That's my point...bingo to you...they didn't recreate real life as you say, by putting the bass in your chest...they pushed stuff left or right, the drums/ or vocals as I said...and it's still a classic, legendary song that all seems to fit ok.
 
Monkey Allen said:
That's my point...bingo to you...they didn't recreate real life as you say, by putting the bass in your chest...they pushed stuff left or right, the drums/ or vocals as I said...and it's still a classic, legendary song that all seems to fit ok.
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I think someone tried to explain it to you that it wasnt a choice back then because they recorded instruments in sections and they tried to make space for the vox.You initially asked why they did this and it was because of limitations and how they thought they could overcome them.

Not convention, experimentation. And to me it sounds crap.
 
Monkey Allen said:
Convention states these days that the kick must be down the centre, like the bass...and off we go...
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Since it's hard for our hearing to localize low frequency sounds there is little benefit to panning them. Secondly, by panning LF tracks to the center you are using both speakers to reproduce it leaving the playback system with more headroom.

Going back again to the days of vinyl, LF was often centered with special filters by the mastering engineer to prevent playback problems.
 
CFox said:
it was because of limitations and how they thought they could overcome them.

Not convention, experimentation. And to me it sounds crap.
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Whereas because some of us of a certain age grew up with records sounding like that, it's not crap sounding. By the time I started listening to records {1970} centre panning of bass, drums and vocals was the norm. It was actually only in the late late 60s that stereo took over from mono, albums took over from singles as the dominant formats so the stereo experimentation of the mid 60s was pretty short lived. But I like the "vocals to one side, instruments to the other" way of mixing too.
It's only Moroccan roll.
 
CFox said:
I think someone tried to explain it to you that it wasnt a choice back then because they recorded instruments in sections and they tried to make space for the vox.You initially asked why they did this and it was because of limitations and how they thought they could overcome them.

Not convention, experimentation. And to me it sounds crap.
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I never asked why they did this...all I said was that they did it, I knew they did it...and there are some classic songs with this kind of mixing...

Read more carefully old son!
 
I was just listening to The Beatles' Come And Get It...the drums are all left, the bass is all right....great song. Sounds awesome!

That's what I was talking about

:D
 
Yeah, when push comes to shove, a great song is a great song. Sometimes I think we get too hung up on rules and norms and simply don't enjoy a song for what it is.
 
grimtraveller said:
But I like the "vocals to one side, instruments to the other" way of mixing too.
It's only Moroccan roll.
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Interesting- I remember hearing that on early Beatles albums, and at the time, thinking it was way cool- but more recently hearing that, it sounds strange and very unrealistic- I don't really care for it at all, now.

I think the post that said start with keys panned hard L and acoustic panned hard R, and work from there, is the kind of thing the OP was looking for.
 
stevieb said:
Interesting- I remember hearing that on early Beatles albums, and at the time, thinking it was way cool- but more recently hearing that, it sounds strange and very unrealistic- I don't really care for it at all, now.
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I was listening to 'SF Sorrow' by the Pretty Things this morning and the way it's mixed (it's from 1968) brought your comments to mind. It also occurred to me that I never thought that all over the place panning was cool. In fact, until really recently I never thought about it at all. It was just normal to me. And it still is. I don't find it unrealistic. In fact I don't find any specific way of mixing either unrealistic or cool. I like them all. As Rimshot will tell you,
Rimshot said:
The simple are so easily amused. :p
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stevieb said:
I think the post that said start with keys panned hard L and acoustic panned hard R, and work from there, is the kind of thing the OP was looking for.
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For a long time, putting the drums to the right and not the centre felt right to me. No offence to anyone but I do find it intriguing that someone would ask where to place things in their mix and not just do it and if it felt right, hang everyone else's opinion.
 
Yeah I used to put bass left because I listened to so many old classic songs with the bass left I just thought that was the place for it...then I started reading the rules and it tricked me into thinking that the bass must-go-down-the-centre and so I started doing that...now I'm back to it doesn't matter do what you want
 
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