Peak limiting on drum transients

[PhiloBeddoe]

I read an article in the latest Recording magazine wherein the author suggests recording drums to tape to take advantage of tape compression. He then transfers the drums to a DAW and finishes the mix.

I'm a much better musician than engineer, but it seems like there is merit in this. I remember recording to tape years ago and that the dynamics seemed like less of a problem than in a PC based system. I assume this is because the dynamic range of a digital system is so much larger.

When you look at a waveform of a drum hit there is a huge, presumably inaudible, very brief peak followed by the 'meat' of the signal.

My question is: Is there any value in getting rid of these with a look ahead limiter at the track level rather than on the overall mix?

BTW, I record rock music. I'm not after a triggered sound like you'd hear in metal, but something controlled.

Many thanks

 

[Farview]

My question is: Is there any value in getting rid of these with a look ahead limiter at the track level rather than on the overall mix?

The short answer is yes. There are also tape emulation plugins like Magneto that will do this.

 

[slidey]

I use pro tools & the standard compression is what I use to get my results. I don't use any sort of look ahead untill mix down & that's across a whole mix (if it needs it)

I'm about to start utilising an analog stage in my recording to make use of the "analog tape compression". There in I'll no doubt find a whole new learning curve, because up till now I've been a "digi-kid"

up till now I use standard compression & EQ on individual drum tracks & then I group all the drums to a stereo bus & all the cymabls & hats etc to another stereo bus, & then those 2 buses go through a "full kit" stereo bus

so by the time the kit sound hits my ears it has been well squashed (not to pumping point you understand)

I too like natural sounding drums, & only trigger if I have to save something that can't be re-tracked. I also record a lot of rocky style stuff that needs an "in your face" drum sound

 

[xstatic]

There are many ways of doing things digitally that can sort of recreate this scenario. Some are certainly better than others. However, nothing seems to have really nailed the sound of fast tape on a quality machine. Technically, that type of compression is "lossy". It degrades your signal. Realistically however, most people seem to peg that sound as desirable. Some plug ins are certainly better than others. So far from my observations, the only thing that seems to really come that close however is the new Rupert Neve tape emulator.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Thanks for the insightful responses so far. I was expecting the mastering engineers to say 'leave all peak limiting to us'.

I'm on Cubase SX and I have Magneto but haven't used it much. For some reason I never imagined it doing look ahead peak limiting. I will definitely experiment with it.

Looks like it's $1600+ for the Neve unit(!) I guess that's merely equivalent to the price of a few reels of 2" so it's a relative bargain.

 

[mixsit]

...When you look at a waveform of a drum hit there is a huge, presumably inaudible, very brief peak followed by the 'meat' of the signal.
My question is: Is there any value in getting rid of these with a look ahead limiter at the track level rather than on the overall mix?

In my opinion yes. Particularly where there is inconsistent playing, and/or the random peaks. You can knock off some amount of peak without affecting the sound at all, and get away with even some amount more with it falling into the 'maybe different but not necessarily worse' department.
Preferably at the track or sub-buss level here unless it's just some strays.

Anybody see the drum-peak tests Eddie C. did in Electronic Musician with the "Neve style vs. clean pres? They leveled things out (on his scope) very well. How about that for an option?

 

[mixsit]

Thanks for the insightful responses so far. I was expecting the mastering engineers to say 'leave all peak limiting to us'.

IMO not necessarily. (For drums?

Looks like it's $1600+ for the Neve unit(!) I guess that's merely equivalent to the price of a few reels of 2" so it's a relative bargain.

Chameleon. (But I only have one. Damned if it's going to end up on the snare.

 

[mshilarious]

Thanks for the insightful responses so far. I was expecting the mastering engineers to say 'leave all peak limiting to us'.

That's for peak limiting on the stereo bus. Sending a finished mix that has problems with drum transients off for mastering will require the ME to spend more time fixing that issue while trying to avoid harming the rest of the mix as a result. Do what you need to do on the drums.

 

[Farview]

I'm on Cubase SX and I have Magneto but haven't used it much. For some reason I never imagined it doing look ahead peak limiting.

Tape isn't a look-ahead device. You don't have to worry about the look ahead.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Tape isn't a look-ahead device. You don't have to worry about the look ahead.

I guess I assumed that nothing short of a look-ahead would be fast enough to catch those transients. I can play with Magneto and see if they're still there after applying it.

That's for peak limiting on the stereo bus. Sending a finished mix that has problems with drum transients off for mastering will require the ME to spend more time fixing that issue while trying to avoid harming the rest of the mix as a result. Do what you need to do on the drums.

This is good to know. The transients in my mixdowns seem to be exclusively drum hits, so I figured it wouldn't make much difference. Now that I think about it, I can easily see how there's a difference addressing individual tracks.

They leveled things out (on his scope) very well.

They = Neve? Sorry, wasn't clear to me what you meant.

 

[Farview]

I guess I assumed that nothing short of a look-ahead would be fast enough to catch those transients. I can play with Magneto and see if they're still there after applying it.

It's in the computer, it isn't real time. (cubase compensates for the latency)

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Farview,

Thanks for your patience. Got it. I'm familiar with plugin delay compensation. Cubase is great for that! You never really have to think about it.

I guess I was putting magneto in the same category as a regular compressor with some non-zero attack time and I assumed that only a look ahead limiter would ever look far enough ahead. So basically Magneto acts like...tape. I guess I'm slow today.

Looking forward to playing with this stuff.

 

[mixsit]

They = Neve? Sorry, wasn't clear to me what you meant.

Yes. This preamp (and one other possibly IIRC) showed leveled spikes as the drum hits progressively increased in level.
Wayne

 

[RDMSstudio]

Thanks for the insightful responses so far. I was expecting the mastering engineers to say 'leave all peak limiting to us'.
QUOTE]

Actually the opposite is true. Reducing peaks in a mastering situation will always affect the other sounds in the mix more. Fixing them before mixdown will give you a better sounding master.

 

[RDMSstudio]

Thanks for the insightful responses so far. I was expecting the mastering engineers to say 'leave all peak limiting to us'.

I'm on Cubase SX and I have Magneto but haven't used it much. For some reason I never imagined it doing look ahead peak limiting. I will definitely experiment with it.

Looks like it's $1600+ for the Neve unit(!) I guess that's merely equivalent to the price of a few reels of 2" so it's a relative bargain.

Actually the opposite is true. Reducing peaks in a mastering situation will always affect the other sounds in the mix more. Fixing them before mixdown will give you a better sounding master.