PA feedback problem

neoblasted said:
Thanks for all the good tips guys, I will rent a louder PA just to compare with, and get a EQ to ring out the room. The nasty feedback always seem to be in the 2.2 Khz and 5 Khz.
also we are not ready for gigs, what we want is having fun without that annoying feedback, we've been having this problem for one 1 year now, sometime we are lucky I am able to pinpoint the best EQ settings (3 bands settings) but sometime, everything I try just doesn't work. (Its like it depend of the weather outside) hahahah.

Thanks again
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Generally speaking you'll have better luck addressing actual acoustic issues first, such as source volume, instrument volume, absorption/diffusion treatment, mic placement etc. Electronic solutions are the secondary layer of defense, much less effective. One reason is that any small change can shift the problem frequency making your eq cuts ineffective.
 
The principles of getting a good "Gain Before Ring" have been known for at least 60 years.
The loudspeakers and the microphone(s) must have a smooth frequency response. Obvious really, ring will start at the highest peak in the system.
Loudspeakers should ideally have a radiation patter that puts as much energy as possible into the horizontal plane and as little as possible in the vertical. This means tall, thin speakers aka "line source". Trouble is they are a PITA to carry around and mount at a venue and so their merits have been overtaken by convenience and almost everyone uses omnidirectional 12 or 15 inch "tubs" with tweeters!
But that situation seems to be changing now and folks have re discovered the line source.

There is a thing called "Critical Distance". Essentially a PA system is trying to put every member of the audience's ear one inch from the singer's mouth (and if you WERE there and she is still quiet you don't have a hope in H!) BTW, there is little "smoother" than a decent omni mic and it might seem counterintuitive but omnis can work well for PA. There are now some very good, modestly priced condenser mics designed for live use, they will have a smoother response than most dynamics.

Dave.
 
I suppose a little mud map of how the rehearsal room is set up and where the singer, other musicians and the speakers are would be possible?

Alan.
 
Some of the best advice I've heard is putting her in cans for practice. Not only will it save her voice, but might save her hearing as well (if you use some good noise cancelling headphones...
An E835 is a $100 fix. Definitely worth a check. Most major music stores will take it back within 14 days without question.
The consensus rings out though: control the drum volume (barrier/trapping) and get control back. Less drum will allow less guitar, less bass, and optimally, less feedback.
 
Using cans for practice would indeed help things--especially keeping the level on the low side to encourage the vocalist to sing louder.

However, my worry would be that, when you decide you're ready to do gigs in front of people and she can't use the cans, you may have actually made things worse--unless you can afford in-ear monitors for the gig.
 
I understood that the main objective in this case is to be able to hear the vocalist at rehearsal. No?

Any PA system is limited to the room it is in. It is most likely the singers natural voice in relation to the volume of everyone else in the room is what is killing you guys. The singers ability to hear herself before feedback is likely a issue with how loud everyone else is. Granted, she just may have a soft voice. But you need to work within her abilities if that is the case.

Take the steps needed for her to hear herself before she kills any control/good technique of her voice. Either get her some way to have adequate monitoring without straining her voice, or she will soon learn badly, ways to destroy what she has now by straining herself to hear in a poor environment.

You can always get another singer, but I am going out on a limb here and guessing the singer is a family member or close friend?

Even more reason to take whatever steps/expense to resolve this before destroying her voice and technique. If there is one.
 
If you are not already, set up the rehearsal space something like this, non reflective surface behind the drums as well will improve things even more.

rehearsal.jpg
 
witzendoz said:
If you are not already, set up the rehearsal space something like this, non reflective surface behind the drums as well will improve things even more.

View attachment 96417
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I'd do that but with a wedge for the singer and the PA across the room pointing back at the band.

[Edit] Actually, I'd ditch the mains and use wedges for everybody. If you're going to rehearse make it as much like being on stage as is practical.
 
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Just a thought, but is the singer experience working with mics? Sometimes, inexperienced singers will hear their voice and either back away from the mic a bit, or sing quieter? An inch makes a HUGE difference in available volume before feedback.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
I'd do that but with a wedge for the singer and the PA across the room pointing back at the band.

[Edit] Actually, I'd ditch the mains and use wedges for everybody. If you're going to rehearse make it as much like being on stage as is practical.
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I would stick with what I said, if the problem is feedback the monitor wedge will only add to the problems. In a rehearsal room the singer should be able to hear themselves with a PA pointed at their head (forgot to mention the the PA has to be off the floor stands best and at head height), the band will still hear it. If you want to practice as if you are on stage hire a hall and set up like on stage and then use a monitor wedge.

The setup I have drawn is the best reduction of feedback in a rehearsal room you could hope for.

Alan.
 
Not much you can do about drum volume except ask the drummer to chill out (dynamic drummers beat hard-hitters any day anyway) but you can certainly turn down the volume on your guitar and bass cabs so she isn't having to crank her vocal to the point of feeding back...
Honestly shocked that nobody has suggested simply turning down the backline.

I understand that guitarists like the sound of a loud amp but being in a band is about doing what's best for the overall sound and not the individual.
 
ecc83 said:
It is a hard lesson to learn and many never do and ever struggle but the fact is the loudness your singer can make before feedback is the BASE LINE sound level of the band! ALL else has to cowtow to that level.

This assumes of course that you want the audience to actually hear the lyrics? I have heard innumerable bands where they clearly don't!

Dave.
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witzendoz said:
I kind of suggested that in post 13.

Alan.
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Apologies. Missed a page.

And your right. Bang on.
 
witzendoz said:
I would stick with what I said, if the problem is feedback the monitor wedge will only add to the problems.
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Depends on the ceiling height and material (which I concede probably favors your suggestion). Also, the closer the speaker is the less volume it needs to put out and the quieter the reflections. But the first thing to do is lower the band volume. Differences like ours are minor compared to that.
 
thanks again all for all the precious tips. One of the problem here is that the singer, a girl, doesn't sing really loud, as oppose to me or other member of the band (all guys) I just say hello in the mic, and damn it sound kind of loud to me without any feed back since, I don't need that much gain. Maybe she don't kiss the mic enought. We will change the placement of the speaker so she will sing more in front of the PA and farther away from it, she use a Beta 58 so, i guess the mic is good. We will also try to use a Roland Kc-300 as a monitor for her on the floor. and the the PA facing the rest of the band... Thanks again for your help
 
neoblasted said:
thanks again all for all the precious tips. One of the problem here is that the singer, a girl, doesn't sing really loud, as oppose to me or other member of the band (all guys) I just say hello in the mic, and damn it sound kind of loud to me without any feed back since, I don't need that much gain.
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Maybe a couple of singing lessons to help her with projection? I did a singing workshop back in the late 80's and I never looked back, 1000% improvement on breath and projection.

Alan.
 
witzendoz said:
Maybe a couple of singing lessons to help her with projection? I did a singing workshop back in the late 80's and I never looked back, 1000% improvement on breath and projection.

Alan.
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+1 to that.

I need to be honest and admit that I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket but several times I've seen the difference that a couple of sessions with a vocal coach/singing instructor can make to breathing and projection.
 
Has genre been mentioned?
The lass might have a beautiful voice but more suited to acoustic guitar and piano?

If she is trying to front rock covers but does not have Janice J's vocal chords, hopeless.

Dave.
 
I saw a band recently that had this issue with their new female lead singer. At this gig they had to cut everyone's volume down because they could not crank her any louder due to feedback (they had all amps except bass miked, too). Their previous singer had plenty of projection, so it had never been an issue. Unfortunately, the venue's set up forced them to have the PA speakers in the corners behind them - if they could have moved them 6 feet further forward, it would not have been an issue, but with low ceiling and reflective walls either side, it was a nightmare to try to balance out.
 
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