Overhead mics

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frosty55

Member
Does anyone know if you have to flip the phase on a single overhead mic for a drum kit? In the coming weeks I aim to record a demo with my band , using a Tascam 58 and very basic gear. The drums I will be recording using a couple of mics on the kick, and have the snare and Tom's close mic'd . I aim to get most of the sound of the kit using an SM57 on the overhead. I just wondered if the 57 would need to have the phase flipped. Thanks
 
The overheads should be in phase with each other. No need to flip one.

The direct answer to your question is, you push the phase reverse button on your interface/mixer/preamp. If you don't have one, you would need to build a special cable.
 
If you have limited equipment - I'd forget about miking up the kick with two mics - it's a good technique (in a really good room, with a really good kit, with really good mics) but if unless you have spare mics, I'd use two for stereo overheads and live with one kick and EQ. Kind of like buying a Lamborghini and searching for cheap petrol.
 
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frosty55 said:
Does anyone know if you have to flip the phase on a single overhead mic for a drum kit? In the coming weeks I aim to record a demo with my band , using a Tascam 58 and very basic gear. The drums I will be recording using a couple of mics on the kick, and have the snare and Tom's close mic'd . I aim to get most of the sound of the kit using an SM57 on the overhead. I just wondered if the 57 would need to have the phase flipped. Thanks
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No to the phase flip - drums I would employ the Glyn Johns 3 microphone setup - I wouldn't put two microphones on the kick.

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Ok. So if it's the Glynn John's method then the three mics would be assigned to three separate tracks in my recorder. I assume it will only the kick drum mic getting compressed. Regarding analogue tape, would there be any benefit in recording the kick drum and the di'd bass guitar into the red in the recorder? I'm assuming natural saturation and a little natural compression happens when this method is employed. By the way, my band plays rock/pop if it's any help.
 
I'm not being funny - but you seem to have picked up a few advanced tips, and are trying to run before you can walk. The time to experiment with pushing analogue levels to get the benefit of tape based compression is when you have already got the hang of recording clean and neat. If you want to record to old equipment for the 'alleged' sonic benefits (which being honest, for me are questionable - I was VERY happy moving to digital, but understand some people's alternative viewpoint) then probably best to not get into bad habits. Many folk really struggle to hear different types of compression, and worse, even fewer can manage them well.

I suspect that putting recordings into genres for technique is probably wrong - putting it into decades for realism might be better. Every period in recording history seems to do things differently. Drums, particularly. We went from big band jazz drums with probably a single overhead, to OH, Kick and snare, then into rock with every drum miked up, some with two - snares particularly need the polarity fiddling with if miked top and bottom to pick the best - again, not a formula. We have the same thing now on guitar cabs, and you press a button and listen to the result. In fact, in DAWs, you can even adjust the timing of the double mics.

Start simple - it sounds like with your 57's and 58's your drum choices are a bit limited - you cannot do the advanced techniques with what you have.
 
Again, I agree with Rob. The first thing you need to get right is the mic placement. That makes the most difference. Things like tape saturation are pretty subtle in comparison. Also tape saturation effect is different depending on what kind of tape deck you are using. There is a difference between how cassettes saturate and how 2" tape saturates. If you are pushing a cassette expecting it to sound like a high budget classic album, you will be disappointed.
Get it to sound right first, then experiment with pushing the levels.
 
Through the cassette days I hated hiss. It spoiled my recordings. As a consequence I fiddled with the audio levels, the bias settings and the equalisation settings, because my equipment let me. My goal was treble that sounded nice up top with minimal hiss. That was my criteria for the tweaks. Years later I bought a compressor. It didn’t do anything other than make things muffled. Then a few years later I finally understood what it was doing, and made that vital link to dynamic control, and I could finally hear what each knob did. For twenty years I recorded end to end with tape compression, having done the same cassette tweaking on my Tascam four track, and didn’t know, because the internet hadn’t been invented and I relied on books, that I even was compressing! Now people know about compression, I find it odd they are deliberately doing what I never knew I was doing? Before you do the clever stuff, you must get basics right, and a small collection of mics is a great grounding.
 
Farview said:
Again, I agree with Rob. The first thing you need to get right is the mic placement. That makes the most difference. Things like tape saturation are pretty subtle in comparison. Also tape saturation effect is different depending on what kind of tape deck you are using. There is a difference between how cassettes saturate and how 2" tape saturates. If you are pushing a cassette expecting it to sound like a high budget classic album, you will be disappointed.
Get it to sound right first, then experiment with pushing the levels.
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Hi there. It's not a cassette deck I'll be using , but 1/2" tape. I've a Tascam 58. Regarding overheads, what would be the way to go? I have an SM57, a pair of Shure beta 57's, AKG D190e, Audio Technica Pro4H, Audio Technica Pro 4L, Realistic PZM, and a pair of Beyer Dynamic CV710(CK703 capsules) condensers.
 
I was talking about tape saturation issues, using cassettes as an example of how I misunderstood what was happening. With your mic collection, which is better than we thought, I'd have the CV710 up as overheads, the 190 on hats the 57 on snare, the beta 57s as toms - and try the remainder as kick drum mics. The PZM might even work as kick if you can make sure it doesn't overload and make that nasty clicking sound. The AT's might do OK in the kick, or maybe one of the beta 57s and swap the AT's to tom duty. without a dedicated low end mic, this is going to take some placement fiddling to sort. If your list is JUST to find two for overheads, everything else being covered - still the Beyers. Old but good! As is that 190 - I have four of these and they are actually often taken for condensers by their sound by younger people.
 
Ah, a previously unheard implementation of the word 'basic'. so the 57 on the kick has turned into an Audix and there's now a full compliment of mics of all kinds.
Understood.

Going back to post number 1.
I just wondered if the 57 would need to have the phase flipped
Click to expand...
Try it and see?
 
Usually, you don't have to flip the overheads. It will make a difference, but whether it's better or not depends on placement and the room. It's not a rule, but if the snare sounds thin, you try to flip the phase and see if that makes it better or not.
 
As mentioned, the Glyn Johns method works very well.

A trick I've used to make sure everything is in phase, uses a long microphone cable. Put an end against the kick drum batter side, and pin it down with the beater of the kick pedal. Then, stretch it to reach one of the capsules of the Overhead mic. Hold it there, and continue with the rest of the length toward the center of the snare drum, creating a triangle. (this may take 2 people).

Once you've established that, just swing the pivot point near the microphone over the floor tom (without moving the other two ends on the snare and kick) and then use that to place your other overhead mic.

If done correctly, both mics will be equidistant from both the kick and the snare. This should resolve any phase issues.

Then, mic the kick, mic the snare, and have at it. Tuning and performance will have a greater effect than using 2 kick drum mics or other advanced techniques.


Edit: Tried to find a video of someone using that measuring method, and found this. Everyone who uses Glyn Johns should check it out!
 
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What a nitwit system. Almost every digital system now has the ability to dial in tiny amounts of delay, or on reply to bring it forward. Of course you could just get out a tape measure if your obsession is this bad. Real life does NOT have perfect phase correlation. Few Famous recordings have it, and for many, the errors are part of the sound. Your measuring plan assumes it’s in an anechoic chamber, because above the kit are large reflectors, which will give your mics a double hit from the kit and snare due to that longer pat. It’s quieter of course, but there. Most drum recordings have to be compromised. It’s far more important to tune them, damp them and that changes the sound. The player may often choose their sound. It may be wrong for recording. One person will win, and usually it’s the player, unless they’re just playing a session for a fee, when they’ll be happy with anything you do.

if I saw somebody measuring out distances with mic cable, I’d know they were probably also the owner of a vinyl turntable, with a mains cable costing a grand, and the pickup arm oriented with the Earth’s magnetic field for ultimate performance.

it’s hard to take these things seriously as they combine physics with ridiculousness but those who believe it can hear it. I don’t, and I can’t. If you do it, and it improves your sound, that great for you but not for me.
 
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