Over 96khz in the studio? Do I trust this store?!

NeoMagick

New member
So, there's a gear store that a friend and I frequent every so often. They have a new Mackie live console, the TT24, that's entirely digital, and clocks at 96khz. Lots of pretty colours, serial number of "4", etc etc.

One day, not that long ago, he walks in and starts poking and prodding. He'd also happened to take in one of my equipment lists for a quote for some gear I'm looking to pick up. He comes back and reports...

"Hey, they said that rather than spending so much on something like that M-Audio Tampa, or the TwinQ you've been looking at, they said they've heard really impressive things out of the Behringer ADA-8000, and recommended that over them."

Now, I'd been looking at the Behrry since November. I'll admit freely, I haven't heard it in use. I do, however, know very well what it is, how it works, that people generally aren't thrilled with it above and beyond a basic drum preamp setup (and when I record, I'm recording acoustic violins, guitars, and vocals), and that it doesn't go about 48khz, and I'm clocking 96khz. I mention to him essentially that these are the reasons why I haven't bought one yet.

'Oh, well then you'd want to get the TT24 sometime.' he says (after staring at it in the store and enjoying all the pretty pictures on the screen). I explain that I find the TT24 to be very innovative, a great piece of gear, but if I'm spending $10k or what have you on studio gear, like I would on that console, I want my interface to be modular and easily replacable (like my 828mkII), so that when the day comes that 768khz is available and I feel drawn to purchasing something that handles it, I don't need to replace everything.

"I asked them about that. They said 'Why would you ever want to go above 96khz in the studio?'"

...My jaw dropped.

"CDs are only 44.1..." (you know the rest of the argument from here - it went on for about twenty minutes).

Now. I, personally, have heard a significant improvement in my acoustic tracking after upping from 44.1 to 96k. I know many people don't, and thats alright. I'm not here to start that debate. My FIRST question is to those who are clocking ABOVE 96k. Do you hear a difference going from 96k to 192k? Just because your equipment *can* do it, does that mean you *do*?

Second -
A gear store pushing the behrry 8000 over much higher quality gear in the studio environment? Is this something you'd trust?! Or am I alone in thinking 'Something's not quite right here...'
 
Did I miss the portion on harmful side effects of NRZ and harmonic distortion, or something else? Or were you referring to the increased processing power and a (possible) "compromise" in audio quality? Cuz that paper didn't lay out to me how higher sampling rates may be deserving of a general health warning...?

Also, true-sinc is but theory, isn't it? Yet he's using it as the standard of comparison?

Secondly, he's got a chip on his shoulder about the size of an old redwood over 'industry salesmen', so I think his viewpoint may be a little on the skewered side. But thats just me.

Nice paper though. How'd you come by it?
 
NeoMagick said:
Did I miss the portion on harmful side effects of NRZ and harmonic distortion, or something else? Or were you referring to the increased processing power and a (possible) "compromise" in audio quality? Cuz that paper didn't lay out to me how higher sampling rates may be deserving of a general health warning...?

Sure he does, right in the beginning: faster samples are less precise than slower samples. Doesn't do a lot of good to get lots of fast, inaccurate samples.

Most of the paper proves that sample rates beyond 60kHz add no accuracy to the audible frequency range. 96kHz isn't so far off to be problematic, but 192kHz could be, and anything faster would almost surely be so.


Nice paper though. How'd you come by it?

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/2997/0
 
ohhh, shit. you meant harmful to the recordings.

i meant health warning in the 'May cause bleeding of the eardrum, and/or uncontrollable anal leakage' sense.
 
the problem with the speed vs. accuracy argument is that we will not be reducing bit depth to acquire increased sampling.

initially you had to record at 44.1 - 16bit. now you can record at 96khz - 24bit. you increased volume accuracy and sampling speed concurrently because the D/A/D converters and the CPUs can now handle that processing demand.

having said that, i don't see the point of 192 at all right now unless you are trying to record humpback whales in their natural habibtat or something.

if 44.1 is the accepted norm for listening to music wherein the human ear tops out at around 20khz and i'm performing processing on the 44.1 khz signal during recording and mixdown, then i would feel more comfortable affecting and effecting a signal that is more accurate than the final resolution. which is why i'm changing to 88.2 very soon.
 
Of course you should record at 192kHz. If you didn't, how could you accurately capture the 60kHz WWVB time signal? Don't you do frequency demodulation with an FFT on your audio to obtain accurate time stamps of when it was recorded? :D

Maybe it's just me.... :D
 
Some science

This is a pretty thoroughly researched argument for why you don't need to record over 96khz (unless you are going to be doing major pitching and/or processing).

This forum won't allow me to link to it, as I am a new user, but its worth googling:
"24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed"
 
Do you have an expensive properly treated recording space?
(the big boys spend million$ building them, hiring PhDs to work out the math to build them.)

Yeah... stick everything on 24bit/44.1khz and worry about more important things...
 
Do you have an expensive properly treated recording space?
(the big boys spend million$ building them, hiring PhDs to work out the math to build them.)

Yeah... stick everything on 24bit/44.1khz and worry about more important things...

+1. I'm far from intelligent enough to speak accurately on sample rates. But its pretty far down my list of importance when I have a talented client in the studio. I'm not arguing the merits for or against, but wow, at the end of the day, I can't imagine listening to an inspired performance of a great song, captured in a wonderful sounding room, by a talented engineer with a nice selection of mics and pres, and thinking "Damn, if it was only recorded at 96K instead of 44.1.
 
the thread is 8 years old and the OP hasn't posted anything on the board since 2007.
I'm gonna say you're talking to no one.
 
Yeah, the last thing we need is another thread on this topic, let alone an 8 year old one.
 
How does this even happen? Why does it happen? It always seems someone with their first post revives an ancient thread on a topic that's been covered a million times with way more recent threads.
 
the thread is 8 years old and the OP hasn't posted anything on the board since 2007.
I'm gonna say you're talking to no one.

Ah, I missed that on my phone. Still, I have a wife and 6 boys. I'm used to talking to no one. My response is still relevant tho. Although he's probably recording at 192 now.
 
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