Organics vs. MDI

notredamer0789

notredamer0789

Nashville Rocker
So for the longest time (ever since I've been mixing, recording, engineering) I have always did things as organic and acoustically "real" as possible. I've never been the guy to put in things in post production via MIDI/Virtual Instruments.

Last night my buddy and I had a long talk about this sorta thing... He went to school for audio production and was exposed to a bunch of MIDI programs and usage. He urged me to make the leap and get a MIDI device to and start experimenting with some of our songs. I have some nice samples and some cool Virtual Instruments that come with Pro Tools. So I fought it and I fought it, but about 3 hrs and $250 later I came home with an M-Audio Oxygen 49 and some software :rolleyes: .

So my question to you guys is... what do you think about recording, mixing, editing, producing MIDI WITH Organics? Do you prefer all organic instruments or more MIDI for projects? Is it just a great filler to make songs sound better, or do you guys think it makes some things sound "fake"?
 
It probably depends on how you use it and where you use it.
It is another tool in the Musician's toolbox..but all these 'samples' are just that 'samples,' they aint the real thing.
Digital recording by its very nature is very clean sounding and Icy cold.
So the more midi stuff you add the less warm it sounds.
I think with Digital recording you do need to have 'real' Instruments to try and get some warmth into it, but that's just my opinion.

Up Above My Head by StevenJackson on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
 
... but all these 'samples' are just that 'samples,' they aint the real thing.

Are they not "real" samples?

Are they any less "real" than an electric guitar?

How many among the great unwashed masses do you think even care?

If it's good music, it's good music, no matter how it comes to be.

Everyone is welcome to have these philosophical self-arguments it they so wish.

Me, I'll just keep trying to make music that a whole lot of people will like and buy...
 
bdenton said:
... but all these 'samples' are just that 'samples,' they aint the real thing.

Are they not "real" samples?

Are they any less "real" than an electric guitar?

How many among the great unwashed masses do you think even care?

If it's good music, it's good music, no matter how it comes to be.

Everyone is welcome to have these philosophical self-arguments it they so wish.

Me, I'll just keep trying to make music that a whole lot of people will like and buy...
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It's just my opinion, no big deal....
It would be boring if we always agreed all the time.
 
They are REAL samples... BUT, a real kit TOGETHER in real time vs. real samples of drums pasted together is absolutely different. I don't care who you are, but a drummer never hits a drum at the same velocity and same exact place twice or three, four, or five times in a row. You can absolutely tell what is real and what is sampled. I do however think that MIDI can be great for texture added to a song to fill it up.
 
It all depends.

I would perfer to be 'organic' with everything, because there are so many many things you can do, with different microphones different positions, unlimeted veriables. and no matter what anyone says, you cant have that level of control with a virtual instrument. And even though they are samples of the real thing, and some are very very convincing. The performance issue is aways there, I use Piano VI's to record piano and I know that I can play a real piano 100000000000000 times better than a fake-real piano, because I can feel the instrument.

see it as a good thing or a bad thing. I can play a £200000 piano for £100, I can have nearly indistuguishable drums in a song without needing to be a drumer.

Plus on a business side its great, you can compose and play a whole score by yourself, without needing to play a single instrument for a fraction of the price of the real thing. You can be 10000000 musicians in one, you save hours and hours of time not having to record a thing, just a bit of MIDI programming. Its cheaper, quicker and easier. Who can resist that in this modern world?

My personal opinion: You will never beat the real thing no matter what for this reason always record the real thing if you can. But use VI's, use MIDI for the things you can't play or dont know people who can. It opens up a world of different instruments that can really expand your music. But dont use them as an easy way out, Like I said a bad effect of MIDI and virtual instruments, is it makes a hell of alot of people redundant in the industry, if you can support those who share your love. or else it will die
 
notredamer0789 said:
They are REAL samples... BUT, a real kit TOGETHER in real time vs. real samples of drums pasted together is absolutely different. I don't care who you are, but a drummer never hits a drum at the same velocity and same exact place twice or three, four, or five times in a row. You can absolutely tell what is real and what is sampled. I do however think that MIDI can be great for texture added to a song to fill it up.
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Absolutely agree.

Up Above My Head by StevenJackson on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
 
benherron.rrr said:
Plus on a business side its great, you can compose and play a whole score by yourself, without needing to play a single instrument for a fraction of the price of the real thing. You can be 10000000 musicians in one, you save hours and hours of time not having to record a thing, just a bit of MIDI programming. Its cheaper, quicker and easier. Who can resist that in this modern world?

My personal opinion: You will never beat the real thing no matter what for this reason always record the real thing if you can. But use VI's, use MIDI for the things you can't play or dont know people who can. It opens up a world of different instruments that can really expand your music. But dont use them as an easy way out, Like I said a bad effect of MIDI and virtual instruments, is it makes a hell of alot of people redundant in the industry, if you can support those who share your love. or else it will die
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I 100% agree, and that's the way I am approaching this... I'm not the great of a pianist, but I do think this will force me to make changes to get better all around. We are in and out of studios, so this will be great help when I'm not in a bigger environment!
 
So the more midi stuff you add the less warm it sounds.
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some of that depends on the quality of the VI imho. they will have a tendency to be less expressive... but even that comes down to the quality of the VI and your skill at programming it many times.

I used to do strictly "organic" guitar, bass etc, but since I have ADDED every other instrument imaginable through midi, even my wife thinks my music is much better, and that is saying something ;)
 
So far, this thread has been mostly about using MIDI as replacements for 'real' instruments, e.g. piano, drums. I agree that it is difficult to create a convincing drum track using MIDI, even if real samples are being used. However, there are many reasons why you would use MIDI instead of real: lack of space, lack of available musicians, lack of money and so on. And, if you work at it, you can create credible MIDI tracks.

But instrument replacement is not the only use for MIDI. It can be used to create new sounds, unusual sonic landscapes and different ways of presenting material. Instead of imitating other instruments, you use it as an instrument in its own right. This is where I find it has immense value.
 
gecko zzed said:
But instrument replacement is not the only use for MIDI. It can be used to create new sounds, unusual sonic landscapes and different ways of presenting material. Instead of imitating other instruments, you use it as an instrument in its own right. This is where I find it has immense value.
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I'd say that in most commercial studios or bigger studios, this is how they'd use MIDI. I agree with that, I think MIDI can really breathe life into tracks that are a bit drab.
 
I know people who CAN play, but never practice. I don't have access to the people I'd want to perform. True the midi isn't as good as the real deal, but it's better then the people I can find.
 
I find it really usefull for working out instrumentation aswell, I write either on piano or guitar so its usefull being able to record parts down and be able to change everything about it to find a way that its, adding a bit of flavour and makes my music a little different then 10 tracks of piano based melodies/chords.

I'm saying I think MIDI is an awsome tool, Just need to be careful not to make it a little too mechanical, and to help support musicians whos jobs will inevitably be lost by the advancment in ultra realistic VI's
 
I agree that it is difficult to create a convincing drum track using MIDI, even if real samples are being used.

I could take a totally crappy track of MIDI drums and play it for any kid in a mall and ask them what instrument it is, and they would say "drums".

So how is that not convincing?
 
notredamer0789 said:
Is it just a great filler to make songs sound better, or do you guys think it makes some things sound "fake"?
Click to expand...

Fake in the sense that Mutt Lange programmed the Cars' Heartbeat City album with millisecond precision, yet it sounds like the Cars? Like all tools, MIDI has its uses and abuses. If you want the "real" feel, don't quantize the data.
 
bdenton said:
I agree that it is difficult to create a convincing drum track using MIDI, even if real samples are being used.

I could take a totally crappy track of MIDI drums and play it for any kid in a mall and ask them what instrument it is, and they would say "drums".

So how is that not convincing?
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You've already answered part of this yourself:
benherron.rrr said:
Just need to be careful not to make it a little too mechanical
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I am sure your kid in the mall would recognise the sound of drums, or of a piano and maybe many other instruments. But by 'convincing' I mean being able to create a drum track that sounds as if it is being played by a live drummer. Many listeners, specially mall kids, may not be aware, or even care, whether the music is programmed or live. But other musicians can tell. You, like most others here, will know of the subtleties involved in live playing. Those subtleties add an element of interest to a piece that is difficult (though not impossible) to create programmatically.
 
You've already answered part of this yourself:

Uhhhhh...not! True, both of our user names start with "b", but we're actually two different posters.

Regarding the rest of your post, I don't make music for other musicians, cause they're usually poor. I make music for the mall kids, cause they have the money.

But, to each his own...

And regarding the poster who said:

I don't think I could live with a "mall" kid's sense of musicality haha

Snobbery will get you nowhere...;) And just remember, it was mall kids who made the Beatles rich. And I don't think you'll find very many people who will claim they were lousy songwriters and musicians...
 
notredamer0789 said:
They are REAL samples... BUT, a real kit TOGETHER in real time vs. real samples of drums pasted together is absolutely different.
Click to expand...
Go to my 'clips' page and see if you can identify which songs have real drums and which have samples. Chicago Recording Studio - Farview Recording

Some of the songs are more obvious than others. But the whole thing about using the same drum sample over and over again is the way things worked 10 years ago, not so much any more. Most samplers and drum replacers use multiple samples in each velocity to keep the machine gun effect from happening.
 
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