Old dog, New tricks

Louddog

Louddog

Member
I have been playing drums for over thirty years. I have always played single bass. I bought a new set about 2 years ago and got a double bass pedal with it. I just can't get it. I practice and practice and just cannot get speed. I am not really looking for technique advice or what pedal might be better (although some would be ok), I really just want to hear a sucess story! Anyone out there over 40 that learned to get those blazing feet I hear on the current metal stuff? I also play guitar and belive the same thing is true. All the speed stuff is developed early, between ages 10-20. I have had several friends pick up a guitar after the age of 25 and they never develop speed. I am no faster on guitar or drums than I was 25 years ago. I am better, just not faster. Somebody out there tell me they started to shred (hands and feet) after the age of thirty!


Doug
 
Woof!

I grew up on single pedals too. I set up lefty, so it wasn't easy finding a lefty bass drum pedal. I finally bought one in 2000, and ran into a similar speed block as you described. Here's how I overcame my block:

First do this: grab a pen and write down what you want to do. Now put the pen in your other hand and try to write the same thing. Not easy, is it? Pretty sloppy too? If you try writing REALLY slow, you might be able to do it better. This is just to get you thinking about what you're trying do with double bass.

-The trick to overcoming the speed block is to re-learn what you already think you know. Double pedals require you to readjust your seating -- including how far you spread your legs, seat height, distance from the pedals, etc. You really need to experiment. Since you've been conditioned to sit a certain way, you need to get used to a new way of sitting.

-Have you ever noticed how a looser head makes it harder to do rolls, especially with larger toms? Same thing applies to the bass drum head. As you strike with one pedal - a looser head is still moving back toward you as you try to strike it with the other beater. Try tightening the head way up at first (even though it might not SOUND good to you), until you can get your speed up a bit.

-Practice a lot more... especially at slower speeds! Set your metronome at 60bpm and tap out 4 bars of sixteenth notes on EACH foot. Pay attention to how you balance yourself on the seat.

- a very useful exercise for me was to play a single stroke roll for 5 minutes at a comfortable pace while reading a magazine or watching TV or something. Then do the same with double strokes for 5 minutes. Start at a comfortable pace and increase speed only when you can do it without fail for at least 5 minutes.

Hope this info helps. -Rez
 
Well i'm a self taught drummer and even though i learned double bass when i was young (got my first double pedal at 15) it took me two years to get it down. My left foot couldnt keep up with my right foot at all to begin with so what i did to build strength was play all my normal beats with my left foot instead of my right untill my left foot was up to par.
 
One left then two right

I have never been into the double pedal thing. But, an accomplished drummer once showed me to use triplets. With the one beat being with the left foot and the other two being with the right. This would be a quick way for you to get some double bass going without your left foot holding you back so much. Then, try to make the left foot the double stroke.

Doing this might be a nice way to try and make the transition eventually to straight 16 notes of L R L R... or L L R R. :cool:

Although John Bonham tried to incorporate a double bass because it became popular (The rest of the band kept hiding his other kick drum) he only used one foot, and man he could blaze that one foot.
 
Louddog said:
I have been playing drums for over thirty years. I have always played single bass. I bought a new set about 2 years ago and got a double bass pedal with it. I just can't get it. I practice and practice and just cannot get speed. I am not really looking for technique advice or what pedal might be better (although some would be ok), I really just want to hear a sucess story! Anyone out there over 40 that learned to get those blazing feet I hear on the current metal stuff? I also play guitar and belive the same thing is true. All the speed stuff is developed early, between ages 10-20. I have had several friends pick up a guitar after the age of 25 and they never develop speed. I am no faster on guitar or drums than I was 25 years ago. I am better, just not faster. Somebody out there tell me they started to shred (hands and feet) after the age of thirty!


Doug
Click to expand...

I'm going to tell you how to build your speed.
In the mid to late 90's, I decided to redefine the way that I played, and built a great amount of speed.

Tighten your pedals as tight as they will go, and play heels down - very slowly. If you practice that way every day it will take about 3 months, but it will build up a lot of strength in your feet - the speed comes from being able to "snap" your foot as fast as possible. If you're playing heel up - you're really training your upper leg, and not your foot.

Think about it this way - if somebody who can lift 150 pounds tries to snatch a weight of 100 lbs. over their head, they are going to have a harder time than somebody who can lift 400 lbs. over their heads lifting that same 100 lbs.

Even if you play heel up, this will increase your speed that way as well, because it will condition you feet and the muscles in your shins - most drummers have really strong calf muscles - but the muscles on the front side of their legs aren't as strong. This will build all the muscles around your foot, while playing hel up tends to build the calf and upper leg muscles.


That's my take on it anyway, and I've been a double kicker since around 1983.


Once your feet are strong, you'll be able to loosen the tension on your pedals - but I still play with mine as tight as they will go.



Tim
 
Thanks for the advice. I don't think my feet are necessaraly weak, I can play triplets (RRL) pretty fast. Even single foot triplets. I have been playing a long time. It's really more of a timing thing I guess. If i play sixteenth notes on the snare, I can follow with my feet at a decent clip, but if I just try to just do a simple beat (eighth notes on ride, 2-4 on snare, sixteenths on the bass) it all goes to hell. I guess part of the reason is, instead of the left foot coming down on 2 & 4, the right foot is. That freaking throws me off!!
Well, I'll keep working.
Thanks again for the help

Doug
 
I think at some point you have to realize that blazing fast double kickers are freaks on the instrument, and that not everyone is capable of playing that way regardless of practice.

If you want to try though, more power to you. I think, from what the good double-kickers have told me, that having 2 bass drums is the way to go, instead of a double pedal.
 
6gun said:
I think at some point you have to realize that blazing fast double kickers are freaks on the instrument, and that not everyone is capable of playing that way regardless of practice.

If you want to try though, more power to you. I think, from what the good double-kickers have told me, that having 2 bass drums is the way to go, instead of a double pedal.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree. It depends upon how much time you are willing to put into serious practice. When I say that - I literally mean, just you - the kicks - and a metronome. No stickwork at all. (Think of it just as if you were back in gradeschool playing rudiments over and over on a drumpad. That's exactly how you do it, and after a while, you can do it second nature, and then you will build up the speed.) Granted, there are certain techniques you have to practice - standard heel up isn't going to yield a lot of speed because of the travel length of raising your leg up in the air, but there are modified Heel Up techniques that will give you speed, such as the heel toe, or the method that Hate Eternal drummer Derek Roddy uses.

Did you ever sit at the dining room table, and press your toes on the floor and sort of "bounce you leg"? That's the exact technique he uses and he as amazingly fast feet doing it.


The world record for speed was set by Tim Waterson - who is a blues/rock drummer in his 40's, and he did it with a Double pedal. Granted - it was an Axis - but it was a double pedal.

As a Double Kicker - I have not met a double-pedal that I liked. They simply don't feel the same as a pair of kick drums to me. It would be nice if they did, because I could lose a drum outof the setup. :D






Tim
 
Tim Brown said:
I have to disagree.
Click to expand...

Okay. I disagree. There are some guys that are not talented enough to play <insert your favorite double kick blazer's name here> licks no matter what they do. Age is a number, and is as relevant to this conversation as your shoe size.

You made good point with strengthening the vital muscles in the calf, but to say anyone can get to that speed point with accuracy is like saying any guitarist can play Ingwie if they practice enough. Not gonna happen.
 
i diddnt read the whole post but from what i can gather is that youre playing it heel down. I find playing heel up you manage to get more power into it. this will also help develop calf muscles which i pretty vital. its all just gradually practising. I have a really terrible d/b pedal i got off e bay. and compared to my bogstandard yamaha pedal that came with my kit it is really slow so pedals do help. I am keeping mine because a) i cant afford another and b) because its so slow it will build my muscles up so when i get axis pedals (dreaming) it should be really easy.
 
Louddog said:
Thanks for the advice. I don't think my feet are necessaraly weak, I can play triplets (RRL) pretty fast. Even single foot triplets. I have been playing a long time. It's really more of a timing thing I guess. If i play sixteenth notes on the snare, I can follow with my feet at a decent clip, but if I just try to just do a simple beat (eighth notes on ride, 2-4 on snare, sixteenths on the bass) it all goes to hell. I guess part of the reason is, instead of the left foot coming down on 2 & 4, the right foot is. That freaking throws me off!!
Well, I'll keep working.
Thanks again for the help

Doug
Click to expand...

I see your problem. You have associated parts/limbs with doing certain parts of the beat.

Force yourself to do the 1 and 3 with your left foot and 2 and 4 with the right. Force yourself to have the left foot do the "ands" and the right foot to do 1,2,3 4 (then switch this around).

Try this approach with your hands as well, i.e., have your left hand start and be the 1 beat of 16th note single stroke rolls, and accent the quarter notes. You will be amazed at the independence and knowledge/feel for where the beat is and how you can have any limb be anyplace in the beat. This will take a lot of work, but this type of practice should be part of your routine.

Make sure you count the quarter notes out loud while practicing !!! Very important :cool:
 
....and please don't get me wrong Louddawg, I hope you do get to that double kick going at warp speed, god knows I never will.
 
Ok, I play like everyone tells you not to, lol. I play mostly relaxed, but when it comes to super fast double kick i can't help but tense up. I try playing relaed and 1. i aint as accurate, 2. I'm a lot slower, 3. it's a lot weaker/quieter. I've been playing around 4-5 years, and double kick for around 3-4. I got a big op on my leg a couple of years ago, in which i got a prosthetic knee, and 1.5 of my quads removed from my left(weaker)leg. Even with this, i can keep pretty quick double kick going as long as needed. Good way to release anger too. Just sit at your kit and force your legs to do it, tense them up and just do it, lol. Thats the best way i can explain how i do it. Give it a go, and i bet you will play the fastest double kick you've ever played.
 
6gun said:
....and please don't get me wrong Louddawg, I hope you do get to that double kick going at warp speed, god knows I never will.
Click to expand...


6gun,
Man - you've got to end that "stinkin' thinkin'".

"god knows I never will"? OF course you won't with that attitude man!
WILLPOWER is the name of the game with drumming.
You can do whatever you want as long as you put your mind to it, and are willing to put in the work and EARN it.

Are you willing to sit and double-kick for 6+ hours per week? If the answer is NO, then you won't be able to get anywhere with the double-bass work - it takes a lot of kick strikes to build the muscle-memory, that's why it takes so many hours of practice initially. But once you have the motion memorized, it won't take much practice to keep it.


Just remember that old saying "Can't, Never Could."


Tim
 
I suggest a simple exercise for build speed and playing your feet accuratly. Play RLRL with your hand followed by RLRL with your feet and so on. Do the same with LRLR and parradiddles RLRR hand RLRR feet repeated, and LRLL hand LRLL feet repeated. Start very slow playing at 60, 72, 80 bpm every day. What this accomplishes is that your hand will play it smooth and set the "foundation" for your feet to follow. Then slowwwwwly build up the tempo.

For me the problem was I started out doing more double kicking than HH pedal work. When I finally started using the HH pedal frequently I had to allow my left foot to play two differnt ways. With the Hi Hat I would have to stomp and keep shut until an instent before the next note, at which time I would have to let up my foot and then quickly stomp back down again. If I did not do this I would produce a "double sound" and not a clean accurate note. Yet for the bass pedal this would not work. If I held the left foot on the bass head it would throw my rhythym off as well as produce an unwanted mute tone. On the bass pedal I needed to let the rebound of the drum do the work and "lift off" the pedal as soon as I hit the note. It possible that you are just needing to lift of sooner(which will greatly improve balance and accuracy)and play the hh and bd pedals differntly. Its a matter of working it and finding out what works for you, but this is what I noticed...

Also don't get caught up in th heal up or down argument; just play whats comfortable. For me its more heal off the foot board just a little bit. It gives me the extra momentum of playing heel up and a little of the control of playing heel down. But more than anything thats a relaxing position to play in I think.

...and no I'm not over 40 but that should'nt matter :confused:
 
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