Non technical hints for first session?

:D

Yeah...that too.


Nate

You could also have her practice the songs with a metronome...let her get use to being on time. :)

I never sugarcoat stuff like this...if they are not playing on time, just tell them. If they refuse to accept it, walk away.
I've pointed out timing/click issues to musicians I've worked with, and most of them adjust once they realize they are off...they don't piss-n-moan about it.
 
She knew it and admitted it. It very much was a result of her playing on her own all the time and never really needing it. So she's used to pushing and pulling the beat. I think we may start over and set up a few extra mics and cut stuff live. That way we all move together. I'll put a click in my headphones and not hers. Then she'll play off me. It was a good learning experience and a lot of fun.
 
There is no musical requirement that all songs need to be played with metronomic precision. Were this the case, there would be no need for terms such as accelerando, ritardando and rubato. Some songs sound better with "push and pull". Some even demand it. However, such tempo variations do make things difficult when layering recordings (specially when adding a drum track later).

There is a difference, though, between deliberately using tempo changes for expressive purposes, and not being able to maintain a steady tempo when required. It is not clear which is the case with this performer.

Nate's idea of doing stuff live is sound: that way the two can work the tempo variations together.
 
nate_dennis said:
I think we may start over and set up a few extra mics and cut stuff live. That way we all move together.
Click to expand...

Yeah...that will help. Run through it a few times until you lock-in...and then record it.

gecko zzed said:
There is no musical requirement that all songs need to be played with metronome precision.
Click to expand...

Very true...but it's like having a gun a not needing it ...VS... needing a gun and not having it. ;)
If you know how to play with precision, it makes it easier to do the push/pull and still stay within the timing/beat of the song.
However, if you never had to follow a specific beat, you may never feel comfortable when trying to.

Hey, I can totally dig the solo singer/guitar player thing where you play free-form rhythms.
When I'm just playing my guitar without any backing tracks and doing some Blues for instance...I'll do the same thing...push-n-pull the timing to suit my mood/feel of the moment, but like you pointed out, when you are doing formal recordings and you plan on layering many tracks (or playing with other musicians), there needs to be more defined timing.
At least if she's going to push-n-pull...she needs to REALLY work all that out or be clear where/when it's happening etc....that way when the layering comes, it won't be a rhythmic mess.

All those classical recordings were often played from written music with marked timing changes...OR...there was/is a conductor moving the entire orchestra for any accelerando, ritardando and rubato...which makes it much easier for everyone to push-n-pull.

Without hearing her music, it's hard to tell if she just can't hold time or if it's an artistic thing....
 
I can see a click being a foreign thing if you`re not used to it. It seems off beat as it lacks flaws. Just takes practice. I have problems when a click is not loud enough, or is jittery or wierd beats. I like a simple click - even if it`s a drum machine.
 
I have played with a click for years. It was never a fully comfortable situation. IME, creating a basic beat with something like EZDrummer, makes a world of difference for feeling natural while tracking. If you plan to record drums after, I highly recommend taking a bit to use a drum program instead of a click track. Trust me man, it is way better than that annoying beep.
 
I have one click sound I've been using for ages....it's just a higher pitched wood block sound that comes from an old Roland D-70 keyboard.
A few weeks back I had to use a different click sound ('cuz the D-70 was acting up)... and I really hated it, it was distracting. :D

I tend to keep the click just low enough to hear it, usually panned hard to one ear. It's there, but it's not a distraction.
One important thing I find is that it really helps to simply tap your foot with the click. If you just sit there playing, while listening to it...it can be weird...but if you tap along, your whole body gets in sync with the click...and the music follows.
 
I zone out to the click. I lock in on it so it just kind of vanishes. I want to be precise and tight. No wavering for me.
 
I agree miro, the best way to use the click, is to forget about it being there. As low in volume as possible. Though, most players I have had experience with, who have no experience using them, are not capable of keeping the click in the back of their head. They tend to dwell on the click and performance suffers. That is why I find that a somewhat real drum beat, is more appropriate for those who have not the ability to separate the click from their focus.

I am speaking for myself here, when I track drums to a clients instrument tracks, I am much more comfortable playing to a programmed beat, than with any click track sound. It takes me 15 minutes at most to program it, and makes things flow much better for me. I can only imagine that it would make it easier in the OP's situation.

Speaking of which Nate, post a rough of what you already have. I can easily whip up a programmed beat for you, if you would like.
 
Greg_L said:
I zone out to the click. I lock in on it so it just kind of vanishes. I want to be precise and tight. No wavering for me.
Click to expand...

That is absolutely what happens when you are good at it. The click goes away. It is not noticed when you are in the pocket, or whatever you want to call it. The problem with the ones not used to playing with it, is they try to follow. The second you have to try to match a click, or even spend the mental time anticipating the next hit, you are already late. Timing is something that can't really be taught. It just happens naturally. More to do with confidence than trying to follow a game of pong. blip. blip. blip......
 
miroslav said:
Without hearing her music, it's hard to tell if she just can't hold time or if it's an artistic thing....
Click to expand...

She's the first to admit she just had a hard time keeping time. But listening back it's not that bad. Definitely workable I think.
 
jimmys69 said:
The problem with the ones not used to playing with it, is they try to follow. The second you have to try to match a click, or even spend the mental time anticipating the next hit, you are already late.
Click to expand...

Yup...I think that's how/why most click virgins get tripped up by it...they try to chase after it.
Just tap your foot to the click for about 8-12 measures...and all of a sudden the click will fade away to the background, and you'll still be in sync with it.

I saw an interview with Al DiMeola where he talks about foot tapping...and he says always tap your foot in order to stay on time, otherwise you WILL drift. Mind you, you can probably skip on some beats here-n-there 'cuz sometimes while playing a certain part you just naturally stop tapping, but by going back to the tap, it helps keep you on time and in sync with the rhythm.
Drummers are usualy always "tapping"...so for them it's part of the playing, though if they do go off, it's usually during long rolls/fills, unless they keep those feet going on the kick or hat...but the weaker drummers will always drift going in/out of fills/rolls.
With some kinds of guitar rhythm playing, it's very much like tapping, though if you also tap your foot along with the rhythm playing...it really does help keep you much tighter....IMO.
 
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