New Raw guitar sound any good?

[Sonixx]

Your sig link ain't working.

So, let me ask this - where does the sound go then? Do you think taht when you listen to an amp, you only hear the direct sound? You don't feel you're getting any added depth by micing the cab? Why are you micing it then? It seems kind of crazy to think you are getting only direct sound - especially with a figure eight. Sure, the direct sound is dominant, but to say it is the only sound in the mic is ridiculous.

it's not about where it goes, although it is absorbed and diffused, but about relative levels. Back to your statement

the room is HUGE to the sound of an amp

I'm basically saying that it's not Huge with close micing and the room has very little influence. A very loud source and the pre is probably padded.

Hum IDK, my Sig is working for me.

 

[TylerDrums109]

Don't even get me started about drummers and tone.........

Hey dude...My main instrument is actually guitar....I have a pretty darn good ear i just have no real experience working a guitar tone into a mix so i have no references on what to look for in a raw guitar sound...setting up an amp to jam is different than setting an amp up for live play with a band which is different than setting up an amp to record...took that a bit offensively although i don't think it was meant to be so w.e

And to clear things up for the rest of you...keep in mind this is NOT my best guitar playing...for a set up i am micing a Roland Cube 15 with an sm57 into an alesis usb mixer...and recording it with Acid Pro 6...i cannot record with a tube amp as i do not have the cash to have the privilege of owning one...but i do think that my two amps are good for solid states....i have a flextone II and a roland cube 15 for practice....the amp has four different distortion settings i was using it on the heaviest setting...it has another setting that sounds similar but sounds a bit more open...almost as if its getting a big boost in the lower mids giving it a wider sound...i think i'll try recording on that setting...

 

[soundchaser59]

Just because there's no evidence that something was.......doesn't mean it's proved that it wasn't.

This same logic is frequently used to counter the atheist stance.....

 

[NL5]

it's not about where it goes, although it is absorbed and diffused, but about relative levels. Back to your statement



I'm basically saying that it's not Huge with close micing and the room has very little influence. A very loud source and the pre is probably padded.

Hum IDK, my Sig is working for me.

Yep, I can't pull up you sig.

Anyway, maybe huge to me is minuscule to you. I don't know. The room is huge for drums and almost as bid for micing guitar cabs. The room can also sound like ass. It's one of the biggest obstacles to home recording IMHO.

...took that a bit offensively although i don't think it was meant to be so w.e

Yeah, sorry....that statement had NOTHING to do with you whatsoever. I was just speaking in general terms.

 

[six]

This same logic is frequently used to counter the atheist stance.....

I guess so. There's just one big difference: there ARE modelers.

 

[Sonixx]

The room is huge for drums and almost as bid for micing guitar cabs.

surely you're not stating a room's equivalence between a kit with overheads that are room mics with close micing a cab blaring at well over 100 db.

 

[RAMI]

surely you're not stating a room's equivalence between a kit with overheads that are room mics with close micing a cab blaring at well over 100 db.

I don't think he's saying that. But, yours is not a fair comparison. More relevant would be comparing close micing a snare to close micing an amp. Even close micing a snare, the room plays a big part of that. Why wouldn't it with an amp?

 

[Jouni]

...of the tone.

The sound is very gnarly distortion. Violin like, with not much pick-dynamics. Could be used in a lead if you can mix it, but personally I wouldn't try stacking/multitracking that into a rhythm sound, or doing much arpeggios, or tremoloing at higher tempos. Too sizzly and too much bottom-end for that.

 

[six]

I don't think he's saying that. But, yours is not a fair comparison. More relevant would be comparing close micing a snare to close micing an amp. Even close micing a snare, the room plays a big part of that. Why wouldn't it with an amp?

actually you can't compare a snare to a guitar. you could however compare the first miliseconds of a snare hit to a guitar. the rest of the snare-sound is basically room - so the room is important for this but not for the first impulse. particularly when the hit is loud, the source/room ratio will be veeeery high, the room therefore less important.

... just as with a loud guitar amp. as long as your playing (even quieter stuff), the room won't matter too much because of the source/room ratio being high.

My 2 cents. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

There are recordings and live shows made with amps in closets. I'm not sure yet what this tells us about the question "room matters".

But one last thought for this post and this room-topic anyway: Even if room matters for the final sound I don't think it's a crucial point why modelers sound deader (yeeeaaah, comparative of "dead" - funny) than real amps. They have the same amount of lifelessness when you play them thru speakers . At least that's what I figured out and I'd sure like to talk about this (in another thread, maybe? ).
As a comparison: take a singer with a bad tone in a superb room. the tone will still be bad. take a singer with a good tone in a very bad room, and you will most definitely go "hmmm... the singer's voice is really good but the tracking sucks."

------------
to the topic-starters tone: it came as a surprise to me that it's a mic'ed sound. I would've said it's a modeling tone, direct.
roland cube? not my cup of tea, really.

 

[NL5]

actually you can't compare a snare to a guitar. you could however compare the first miliseconds of a snare hit to a guitar. the rest of the snare-sound is basically room - so the room is important for this but not for the first impulse. particularly when the hit is loud, the source/room ratio will be veeeery high, the room therefore less important.

OK, so if it's picking up a pretty significant sound (although 20-30db less than initial hit), where do you think that room sound is going in your guitars mic? Just because the guitar is continous, doesn't mean that room sound isn't there till you stop playing. You all are trying to say it has zero effect. What about after compression (one of the reasons compression adds "life" to a guitar track is it alters the direct to reflective sound ratio.

Anyway, there is no point in arguing with the experts. I'm sure I'm wrong, and the next big hit R&R record will be recorded on a pod in some dude's bedroom - since the amp and the room don't matter, and since you don't need a mic, engineering skills don't matter, it really should be quite simple. Andy Wallace is probably outta work these days.

 

[RAMI]

actually you can't compare a snare to a guitar. you could however compare the first miliseconds of a snare hit to a guitar. the rest of the snare-sound is basically room - so the room is important for this but not for the first impulse. particularly when the hit is loud, the source/room ratio will be veeeery high, the room therefore less important.

... just as with a loud guitar amp. as long as your playing (even quieter stuff), the room won't matter too much because of the source/room ratio being high.

ROFL!!!!!

 

[NL5]

surely you're not stating a room's equivalence between a kit with overheads that are room mics with close micing a cab blaring at well over 100 db.

I don't think he's saying that. But, yours is not a fair comparison. More relevant would be comparing close micing a snare to close micing an amp. Even close micing a snare, the room plays a big part of that. Why wouldn't it with an amp?

Oops I missed these two, so this will be my last post in this thread -

No, I'm not saying it's the same, unless you add a room mic to your guitar tracking. Oh's are effectively "room mics", or at least a 50/50 blend. The direct mics are def effected by the room though. Frig, take a snare to twelve different rooms and hit it - it will sound different in every room. That sound IS being picked up by the close mic, and it is affecting the sound. No way around that fact.

 

[Sonixx]

I don't think he's saying that. But, yours is not a fair comparison. More relevant would be comparing close micing a snare to close micing an amp. Even close micing a snare, the room plays a big part of that. Why wouldn't it with an amp?

My statement is totally fair based on his statement

The room is huge for drums...

I'm assuming one is tracking with some sort of overhead or room mic.

I agree comparing a close mic'd cab to drums is oranges an apples, but I didn't make the comparison.

 

[RAMI]

My statement is totally fair based on his statement



I'm assuming one is tracking with some sort of overhead or room mic.

I agree comparing a close mic'd cab to drums is oranges an apples, but I didn't make the comparison.

Fair enough. I made my statement based on your post, not realizing you took what he said as your reference.

But I don't think NL5 meant to compare overheads with a close-miced cab.

 

[NL5]

But I don't think NL5 meant to compare overheads with a close-miced cab.

No, I didn't - as stated above. But there is still room sound in the close mics, just at a lesser amount, but 100db of sounding bouncing around is gonna create a hell of a lot of reflections, and some hellacious peaks and nulls(depending on the room). And the do play a part in the sound - I really can't see how someone can say otherwise. If the reflected sound is so small, we would have no need for sound treatment, and the room would be irrelevant.

And I finally got Sonixx's link to work. Dude, those are full of room sound. The elwood one sounds freaking fantastic. It's in your face and up off the speakers. and has great depth to it. Sounds like you have a decent sized room, or you treated it well (or both). Those clips destroyed the two amp test clips that are in this forum right now.

 

[six]

ROFL!!!!!

tell me about it.

 

[Sonixx]

No, I didn't - as stated above. But there is still room sound in the close mics, just at a lesser amount, but 100db of sounding bouncing around is gonna create a hell of a lot of reflections, and some hellacious peaks and nulls(depending on the room). And the do play a part in the sound - I really can't see how someone can say otherwise. If the reflected sound is so small, we would have no need for sound treatment, and the room would be irrelevant.

And I finally got Sonixx's link to work. Dude, those are full of room sound. The elwood one sounds freaking fantastic. It's in your face and up off the speakers. and has great depth to it. Sounds like you have a decent sized room, or you treated it well (or both). Those clips destroyed the two amp test clips that are in this forum right now.

thanks for taking a listen and the kind words... the M90 is a killer amp, IMO.

I find getting reverb right is a bitch so I'm always trying new and different stuff. all my clips have some level of reverb added. some are very apparent and others are with very short decays. none of them are dry.

 

[doulos24]

just as with a loud guitar amp. as long as your playing (even quieter stuff), the room won't matter too much because of the source/room ratio being high.

that has to be the dumbest thing ive ever heard on this forum that wasn't in the forum of a question. Try that with a bass in a room that has a ringing in the key of A close miced you will try like hell to get it out of the sound of the track, but cause that ration is high the effect of the node will be lower and thus that much more of a pain in the ass to remove from the track let alone the whole mix.

 

[six]

that has to be the dumbest thing ive ever heard on this forum .

hmmm... I've never heard anything in any forum.


1st - It's about the comparison of guitar-amp and snare - not bass, not CPU-fans or farts.
2nd - "loud guitar amp" was definitely the wrong expression. actually quieter should be better to get a higher amp/room ratio. basically I'm just saying that the higher this ratio is, the less important the room is.
3rd - I stated the whole paragraph about this not as "this is the way it is, so shut up" but "this is the way I think about and experienced it - any serious rectification welcome" - and most of all why I wouldn't compare a snare to a guitar-amp in this respect.

My 2 cents. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

comments like "the dumbest thing" or "ROFL" are little helpful, really.


we're completely off topic anyway. I mean, read the title...

 

[357mag]

Also, I've never heard of a pro band using a modeler. Or a SS amp for that matter.

My buddy saw Foghat play awhile back. Guess what they were using? Amplitube...

Solid State amps nowadays can be remarkably good. This is no longer 1968.