New Mic(s) - Acoustic and/or Vocals

cincy_kid

cincy_kid

Active member
So I have read a few of the threads for "Best Mic under $100, $100-$300, etc" and also looked through the FAQ at difference characteristics of mics and thought I would post my question here. First off let me post my facts:

What do I record?

Vocals - I dont do any of the screaming stuff. I do dabble a bit in different genres, but I guess it would mostly be like alternative-pop-rock with your occasional falsetto bits in between sometimes. Some bands that come to mind that I would say my vocals somewhat resemble would be like: (Matchbox 20, Incubus, The Fray, Coldplay, Wheezer, etc)

Acoustic Guitar - Mostly chord strumming with a pick since I am not much of a soloist - and very rarely some finger picking.

Electric Guitar - Hooked up to my Johnson Amp and then miced with a Shure 57. I am ok here for now.

Currently, I have 1 mic (my first real mic) that i use for my vocals and acoustic guitar (recorded separately). It's the popular cheap SP B1, which I have really been impressed with, especially for the price. The way I record my acoustic guitar is just aiming the mic somewhere around the hole, back about 6-8 inches and it sounds ok but I am sure there are better recording methods (X and Y, or over the shoulder, etc)

What is my current chain?

SP B1 >> M-Audio Tampa >> M-Audio Delta 1010 (rack mount) >> PC into Acid Pro 6

What is my goal?

I want to improve the recording quality of either my vocals, acoustic guitar, or both. In other words, If my new mic would help improve my acoustic guitar sound but maybe the SP B1 is still better on my vocals, that is just fine (or vice versa). But if the new mic would make them both sound better, that is fine as well.

I also would like to have a situation where I dont have to keep changing mic stands and positions going from my vocals to the acoustic guitar, which is another reason I want another mic. However, if it is better for me to use 2 mics while recording my acoustic guitar, then I have no problem using the B1 in addition to the new one I get on the guitar at the same time.


What is my price range?

I was hoping to spend no more than $300, but I can go a little higher (maybe $400) if it makes that big of difference.
 
In that price range you can't really do much improving...you can move sideways. Mic's in that range are pretty much all chinese and suffer from poor quality control and are usually hyped in the high end and scooped in the mid...you can get different degrees and flavors of that in the under 500$ price range. The only mics I can reccomend are the SM7b which may or may not suit your style and the RE 20..once again ymmv. I personally wouldn't use a dynamic on acoustic guitar but it has been done . The absolute lowest priced mics that will offer improvement on your sound would be the SHure KSM44 and the AT 4050 and they are in the 700$ range...don't forget about a decent pre too..the Tampa is okay but definately not world class..the real question is: How far do you want to take this? You can make decent recordings with prosumer stuff with good mic placements and a decent, treated room. You can't make stuff that rivals a big studio tho..(ducking the coming flames)..they have the gear, the rooms and the experience. My advice to people is STUDY...book a few hours in a good studio...ask questions..read everything you can get your hands on (not those pop engineering rags that push the latest prosumer stuff tho)..and save your $$..it is much better to buy quality stuff slowly.. stuff that you are going to keep..stuff you have heard...auraphic over in cincy rents great gear very reasonably (auraphic.com)...take a listen for yourself. I wish I had all the money back I wasted on prosumer gear over the years!

Cheers,
Ray
 
I partially disagree w/ Rsolinsky. Some of what he says is true regarding condensers but...
When it comes to mics, I am pretty conservative. Rather than buying the latest bleeding-edge mic that everybody is claiming sounds like a U87, I tend to buy proven pieces of studio equipment. No one can guarantee that any particular mic will do what you want it to do, especially if a vocalist is involved. If you buy time-tested mics, you can, however, count on 2 things: One, it will be good for recording *something*, even if it isn't what you planned on. Two, it will be easier to sell if it doesn't work out for you. Two mics that immediately come to mind are Shure SM7b and Shure SM81. The SM7 is a dynamic mic originally intended for broadcast applications. It is an excellent guitar cab and vocal mic, both live and in the studio. I challenge you to find any professional studio that doesn't own it and use it. The SM81 is a relatively inexpensive small diaphagm mic that is a standard for acoustic guitar (it wouldn't be my choice for most vocals), also used extensively for a drum overhead. The SM7b would be my best recommendation for you. It is *different* from the B1, it will never become useless or require an upgrade, and you can sell it anytime if it doesn't work out for you. In your price range, I think the money would be better spent buying a really good dynamic than another cheap condenser.

When the money does become available, I'm all for a condenser mic upgrade, and that's where I agree with Rsolensky. That tends to come with a $550-$1000+ pricetag, even for the mid-priced mics, such as Rode K2, AKG C414, Shure KSM44, Neumann TLM103, Audio Technica AT4050/4060, etc

If you really want a condenser now, on your budget, I think the best options would be Audio-technica AT4033 or AT4040. In many ways, they do what your B-1 does, but they will do it better. I like the 4033 on acoustic, and the 4040 on vocals. Good luck.-Richie
 
Hey Richard,
You didn't disagree with me at all ! :)..I told him he should get an SM7b (or re20) in that price range..everyone should have at least one large diaphragm dynamic...I did steer him away from another low cost condensor..the sm81 is a great mic too but I don't think both would fit in his budget...

Cheers,
Ray
 
By most accounts, the B1 is a very good acoustic guit mic. I would work on my mic placement.

In addition to the excellent SM7 recommendation, for vocals, I believe a lot of people are very satisfied with their sub-$300 ribbons. Also, there are several pros (Dot, Harvey, and others) that have frequented this board that believe the ADK Vienna + Hamburg, MXL V69 + V67 and others mics are very good for vocals.
 
Well, Rsolinsky, you're right. We don't disagree-much. I think the SM7, RE20, AT4033 or AT4040 are not sideways moves. They are all significant upgrades from a B-1. The point is that the B-1 is a perfectly good entry level condenser, and well worth its price. The SM7 is one of the very best mics of its type, and comes with a shockingly low price tag. We all agree that a top-of-the-line condenser is waaay out of the stated budget. Oddly enough, although I own a B-1, I rarely use it. For most of what I might use it for, I use AKG C2000B, which is my choice for an entry level condenser.-Richie
 
Of course if you really want a LD condenser and don't mind buying used, you could pick up an AT4050 for $300-350. Otherwise the advice from Richard and Rsolinsky is spot on. Love that SM7:D
 
Thanks for the replies guys, I appreicate it.

Ok, so forget about the upgraded condenser at $600-$1000+ for now

so this Sm7 dynamic mic, i can see its in my price range, but you are saying it would be better for me for my vocals? I guess I need to read up more as I was always under the impression that the best vocal recording you can get in a studio is from a condenser and not dynamic.

Thanks again for the suggestions all and keep anymore coming...
 
pohaku said:
Of course if you really want a LD condenser and don't mind buying used, you could pick up an AT4050 for $300-350. Otherwise the advice from Richard and Rsolinsky is spot on. Love that SM7:D
Click to expand...
I'm not sure the 4050 qualifies as an "LD"; the diaphragm is only about 5/8" across.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
I'm not sure the 4050 qualifies as an "LD"; the diaphragm is only about 5/8" across.
Click to expand...

True, although I'd note that AT promotes it as a LD condenser, and it generally sounds like and gets used like a LD condenser. I guess the question is what is generally accepted industry size threshhold for an LD condenser?
 
pohaku said:
True, although I'd note that AT promotes it as a LD condenser, and it generally sounds like and gets used like a LD condenser. I guess the question is what is generally accepted industry size threshhold for an LD condenser?
Click to expand...

An inch, I believe. Half an inch to an inch, at least in my mind, qualifies a mic as being a medium diaphragm condenser.
 
Interesting. AT isn't exactly a small player in the microphone business, and they describe the AT4050 as a large diaphragm mic. From their web site:

"The AT4050’s dual large-diaphragm design provides consistent, superior performance in switchable cardioid, omnidirectional and figure-of-eight polar pattern settings."

" Meet the studio condenser that captures every nuance. With three switchable polar patterns, the large-diaphragm Audio-Technica AT4050 exhibits a remarkable combination of qualities: high-SPL capability with transparent and airy uppers/mids complemented by rich low-end qualities. Its dual large diaphragms are gold-vaporized and aged for consistent, outstanding performance. A precision-machined, nickel-plated brass acoustic element baffle provides rock-solid element stability and exceptional sensitivity."

While there is a wee bit of hyperbole in the text, I wouldn't normally think that diaphragm size would be subject to spin. If 1" is indeed the industry size threshold, why is a major player like AT calling the AT4050 a large diaphragm mic? :D
 
Right on guys..I don't think a different low cost condensor would be any better than a B1.
Hey Cincy: the sm7 would be mostly for your voice. I never tried one on an acoustic..not saying it couldn't work it is just a little unconventional. I've never been impressed with any of the chinese imports and I have had a few mxl's, a gt and a few sp's. They sound okay until you a/b them with something better (AT, Shure etc...). I am struggling right now with a mix where the vox was done with a chinese ldc...that rise from 7-12k is really hard to deal with along with the lack of 250-500 hz...

Ray
 
I think a 4033 or 4040 is a lot better than a B1. They come around $200 or so and are wonderful at acoustic and vox. That said, I would replace my SM7 before any other mic I own. I also like sdc's on acoustic guitar, but that isn't a rule, just a taste thing.
 
pohaku said:
Interesting.

While there is a wee bit of hyperbole in the text, I wouldn't normally think that diaphragm size would be subject to spin. If 1" is indeed the industry size threshold, why is a major player like AT calling the AT4050 a large diaphragm mic? :D
Click to expand...
Well, here's the picture of the entire 40 Series from the AT website. The 4047 and 4060 are both 1" diaphragms. All the mics were shot at the same time, from the same distance, as you can tell from the barrel connector size.

If the 4047 and 4060 1" diaphragms are the minimum to qualify as an LDC, what would you call the 4033 and the 4050?
 

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Harvey Gerst said:
Well, here's the picture of the entire 40 Series from the AT website. The 4047 and 4060 are both 1" diaphragms. All the mics were shot at the same time, from the same distance, as you can tell from the barrel connector size.

If the 4047 and 4060 1" diaphragms are the minimum to qualify as an LDC, what would you call the 4033 and the 4050?
Click to expand...

Easy. A VLDC (Very Large Diaphram Condensor). Hell, there are LSI semiconductors and VLSI semiconductors, why should mics be any different?

This IS 2008 and we should all be running around in flying cars by now.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Well, here's the picture of the entire 40 Series from the AT website. The 4047 and 4060 are both 1" diaphragms. All the mics were shot at the same time, from the same distance, as you can tell from the barrel connector size.

If the 4047 and 4060 1" diaphragms are the minimum to qualify as an LDC, what would you call the 4033 and the 4050?
Click to expand...

Well, AT at least appears to believe they are also LDCs. Although they aren't as direct about the 4033 as the 4050, their series brochure states "A specially contoured, vapor deposited gold diaphragm provides accurate reproduction of even the most subtle sounds, especially at high-frequency signals not easily reproduced by conventional large-diaphragm microphones." Implying, at least that the 4033 is also an LDC, if a bit unorthodox. If memory serves, always a dubious bit of reliance at my age, the AT4050 and the AT4033 predate the AT4060 and AT4047, and thus may very well have been the AT mics with the largest diaphragms at one time.
 
Thanks for some of your replies again.

hey Ray (or anyone), do you think I would notice a big difference in the sound quality on my vocals if I got the Sm7 to replace my B1?
 
for what it's worth, I've been recording recently with a lot of mics in this thread -- you can choose to suffer (at your own risk :D) through some mp3s by following the posts at http://recursor.net/music -- I'm pretty good about being explicit regarding the mics and other equipment and techniques used. For instance, this weekend I recorded my acoustic using two AT-4033s instead my usual staple SM-81s, and liked the result. I would have said they're "medium diaphragm condensers" because my brain wants a "medium" category to go between small and large. They do seem to pick up more detail from the acoustic guitar than the few large[r] diaphragm mics I've tried.

I'm not much of a vocalist, but I do have a couple SM7b mics, and highly recommend them for vocals of the type you mentioned. Just from reading and looking at pictures, I've come to believe that a lot rock vocalists do indeed use them in the studio, in preference to good condenser mics -- meaning that the SM7b is a good match for this sort of singing. Certainly there are other vocal styles that do better with a good condenser. I do have a couple of (really tortured) vocal recordings with the SM7b in that link -- if you have a good ear, you may be able to distinguish the awesomeness of the mic from the less-than-awesomeness of the voice.

Getting a cheap ribbon for the guitar amp and for vocals is indeed a great idea - you can probably stay below $100 for that, recognizing that the cheap ones sometimes have issues that can be fixed by either a) returning/exchanging the mic, or b) opening it up and fixing yourself.
 
Well, It would definately be different than a B1. Whether you would like is would be a matter of taste. Some notable records have been made with it...Michael Jackson Thriller, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Bare Naked Ladies , Randy Newman's stuff...come to mind.

Ray
 
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