New mic or new preamp???

[deadtolove]

Okay so I've been having a raging debate with myself for the last couple of weeks. New mic or new preamp? I currently have an Allen and Heath Zed R16 firewire mixer and, it's preamps are the only preamps I've got. I am using a Rode NT1-A LDC and, a Rode NT5 SDC. I got them in a package deal years ago when I started putting my studio together. I've upgraded pretty much all the rest of my beginner gear since then. I no longer have any Behringer gear, the only cheap compressors left in my rack are there because I like them as an effect not because they are good compressors. I've gone from all digital DIGI001, to an analog digital combo now with the Allen and Heath. The only thing I use the computer for is tracking and editing, everything else is done in the analog domain. All in all I'm very happy with the sounds I'm getting.

Except for the acoustic guitar. I can't get an acoustic tone I like to save my life. There's nothing wrong with it per-say. People tell me all the time it sounds fine. I just think it don't sounds good enough yet. I've been banging my head against the wall for a couple of years now. I've done everything else I could think of. Moved around the room until I found the rooms sweet spot. Put in bass traps and a couple of panels. The room is about as good sounding as I can make the living room of my apartment without seriously losing my damage deposit. The recordings just sound dull and lifeless.

Well long story short it occurred to me the other night as I'm hooking up my new $1000 compressor that I'm still rocking the same mics from the early days and still running off built in preamps. So while I know I'm never going to get, as good of results as I would, like in my living room I do think I could get a little better sound from an upgrade in this department.

So I started reading reviews on both mics and preamps and it occurred to me that maybe a new preamp would make my old workhorses sound better. But, then I had the thought that a better mic would sound better on it's own right? But, not as good as it would with a new preamp... You can see how this cycle just goes round and round. Especially since I can only spend about $1000 at a time. I use the payment plan at zZounds to buy my gear. Anything more then a grand at a time is more payment then my wife will let me make. The Allen and Heath took a full summer of saving change (I'm a waiter so lots of change) to get that bad boy. You should have seen the teller at the bank when I walked in there with $2500 worth of pennies, nickels, dimes and, quarters.

Anyhow, I thought I'd ask you all. Given that I just started a payment plan I've got 3 more months before I can start another one. Until then I'm left wondering which should I upgrade first the mic or the preamps. I've got no problem shooting the $1000 limit on one or the other and getting the latter the next time around. It's not necessary to get both done in one shot. Although preamps seem to be limited to really 3 categories as far as I can tell. They are either really cheap or, not much better then the preamp in my board or, holly crap expensive and, completely out of my range. There are a couple of preamps in my price range but, I'm not sold on any of them from what I can dig up on the on the internet.

Given all that what would you guys do the mic or the preamp?

 

[moresound]

Let's start as the source ..... What is your acoustic guitar?

 

[moresound]

Secondly ..... what do you have for room treatment?

 

[Bobbsy]

Assuming a good guitar (I'll leave that bit to moresound because I'm not a guitarist) new mic all the way.

The Allen and Heath pre amps are very nice--some of the best until you get up to Midas, Cadac or Neve money--so an improvement there would be hard--or at least expensive--to achieve.

However, neither of the mics you have would be my first choice for acoustic guitar recording. Personally I prefer a stereo pair of SDCs rather than a single SDC or LDC. Beyond that, the NT5 is not a favourite of mine either--I find it a bit harsh and unforgiving on guitar. My "go to" guitar mics are AKG 451 EBs or AKG 391s--but with the sE1A closely following them for less money and easier availability.

Edited to add: being a bit heretical here, I'm not TOO worried about room treatment for acoustic guitars because my method is to close mic them--one above 12th fret-ish and one between the sound hole and the bridge. With mics a foot or so away, their close enough not to pick up much room even in an untreated space. I know there are lots of other techniques where the room is far more important (and if I had Julian Bream in a cathedral I daresay my technique would change to something more distant) but the close miking works for me.

 

[deadtolove]

I've got three acoustics at the moment. I've got a Parkwood (Guitar Center's house brand made by Cort) all solid wood, a Takamine EG523SC Jumbo and, a Martin DX1RAE X. None of them are a high end but, all of them suit me and, I like them a lot. They have all been set up by a pro, which included having the frets crowned and leveled. I've upgraded all the nuts, saddles and bridge pins (the Takamine has none) with Graphtech parts. The machines heads where needed where also replaced. The Parkwood is also fitted with an L.R. Baggs M1/iBeam pickup system. I'm overall very content with these guitars. They may not be a Taylor or an HD28 but, they are what I've got, what I like and, what I use. Besides that if I buy yet another guitar my wife is gonna kill me. Between the acoustics, the electrics (including one very tricked out Dot with a Graphtech Ghost system) and, my basses, I have 12 of them in the house.

As far as room treatment goes, I've got 4 inch thick open back, rigid fiberglass wrapped in burlap in the corners with 2 inch thick panels with wood backs hanging on the one exposed wall. I've got Soundproofing blankets hanging all the way down the wall the connects with my neighbors apartment. I also use them for curtains. It helps keep out some of the street noise and is effective and reducing how much sound travels thru the wall. Before I put them up I could hear my neighbors TV. Now I can't. In front of those on that wall is a wall of DVD's and CD's. I do mean a wall. The TV and a cabinet are also in there along with a couch and chair all the usual living room furniture. When recording I throw up some blankets and cover all the TV the DVD rack and the cabinet. I also close mic them at about 6-12 inches away to try and cut out the room as much as possible. I have also tried taking all the panels off the walls and surrounding the guitar player with them in a circle to cut out the room. That worked okay but, was not great. It ain't ideal but it's what I'm stuck with. Just talked to a guy today about renting a house so thankfully I might be out of this apartment soon.

I had been using a Mackie ONYX firewire mixer previously. And the Allen and Heath pre's only sounded different in my opinion not better but, as good as just in a different way. So I had thought I should maybe go with the pre upgrade first. But, if like Bobbsy says the Allen and Heath pre's are all that I think maybe I'll go with a mic upgrade. I'll check out those AKG's. Bobbsy's critique of the NT-5 is pretty much spot on with how I feel about it. My guitar's sound fine in the room. I enjoy playing them in the room. But when I record them I do find it to be really harsh and completely unforgiving. My songwriting partner plays most of the guitar in our little group. He plays with his fingers and is not always the smoothest about it, I call him Bash after his playing style. The NT-5 doesn't forget to tell me all about it either. I kinda think the high end on that mic sounds brittle, while the low end just sounds like its sleeping for lack of a better description. I actually find that to be the case with both my Rode mics.

I do really like the way the NT1-A sounds in front of my little Blackstar HT-1R's little 8 inch speaker though. I can get a really groovy little sound with that combo. But that's a whole other thang.

 

[Bobbsy]

I had been using a Mackie ONYX firewire mixer previously. And the Allen and Heath pre's only sounded different in my opinion not better but, as good as just in a different way. So I had thought I should maybe go with the pre upgrade first. But, if like Bobbsy says the Allen and Heath pre's are all that I think maybe I'll go with a mic upgrade.

To my ear, the Mackie and A&H pre amps are fairly different--at least as far as pre amps go. However, once you hit a certain level of quality, the differences become quite subtle. I know there are those who disagree but, except for pre amps deliberately designed to colour the sound, the subtle change is all you can expect. That's why I suggested a mic change instead!

I'll check out those AKG's. Bobbsy's critique of the NT-5 is pretty much spot on with how I feel about it. My guitar's sound fine in the room. I enjoy playing them in the room. But when I record them I do find it to be really harsh and completely unforgiving. My songwriting partner plays most of the guitar in our little group. He plays with his fingers and is not always the smoothest about it, I call him Bash after his playing style. The NT-5 doesn't forget to tell me all about it either. I kinda think the high end on that mic sounds brittle, while the low end just sounds like its sleeping for lack of a better description. I actually find that to be the case with both my Rode mics.

I really do like the 451 or 391 (sometimes known as a "Blueline") on acoustic but the trouble you'll have might be finding them (or affording the 451). If that is a problem, I'd encourage you to try the sE1A--darn near as good and a current (and less expensive) model.

Of course the X factor in this is that everyone has a different idea how acoustic guitars should sound so my tastes may be different from yours (although our agreement on the NT5 is a good sign). Anyway, give some of the others a try and see what you think.