New House

F

Fret

New member
Ok, it has been a couple of years since I have been on here (since I built my last studio). I am now getting ready to move and will need another studio. In my current house I actually built a room within a room. The walls are only a couple of inches apart so I don’t have the complete isolation that would have been nice but it definitely helped. We went from fighting over the volume between the guitar and the TV to being able to play drums while someone talked at a normal voice on the phone upstairs.

In the new house I am looking for a little more bang for the buck. I haven’t picked the house yet so I don’t know what features or limitations I will have but I’m posting here first so I will know things to look out for. I am thinking about building standard insulated walls with a layer of sheet rock, sheet block, sheet rock on the inner side. Although I did have a wild hair thinking that maybe I would be better off doing this on the outer side as this may provide the ability to not cut holes for electrical outlets degrading the performance of the expense sheet block. Oh, this will be in a basement of course. I don’t want to go as far as cutting concrete and so forth and I am willing to accept the performance lose of not doing that type of thing. The purpose of the room is mostly for a practice room and to keep the kids asleep. Of course I will be doing some recording as well and would like to bring in others without disturbing the wife too much.

So to actually ask a question, what is the best idea for basic construction? Sheet block sandwich, resilient channeling or something I don’t know about? Any other tips?

Thanks
 
Forget sheetblock. Best bang for the buck is multiple layers of 5/8"drywall, on TWO LEAF assemblies, with one leaf decoupled if you can. But this will depend on many existing factors. As far as floating a room, unless you can do a MASSIVE floating floor(concrete) and build wall assemblies with the same transmission loss as the floor, FORGET about floating rooms. One thing for sure. Buy a house with a CONCRETE SLAB. If isolation needs are for drums especially, do NOT plan on a studio built on a wood(structural)floor either. All other considerations will be dependent on existing conditions and construction.
fitZ

PS. When you get the house, come back and tell us your plan and we'll help you figure the assemblies you need as per existing conditions.
 
I’m going to look at a very potential house tomorrow. I have a sinking feeling that the floor will be wood. That is pretty common on the newer houses in Denver.

You lost me on the two leaf assemblies and the one leaf decoupled stuff. Where can I find some more info?


PS. That would be a wood floor in a concrete basement. That should help with some of the sound transfer from the floor to the walls up into the floor of the house (As opposed to a bedroom on a main floor). If it is a wood floor I know that will be a big hurdle but I’m counting on someone having an idea.
 
That is pretty common on the newer houses in Denver.
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DENVER???? YIKES!! :eek: :eek: Holy crap. BEWARE.

I have a sinking feeling that the floor will be wood. That is pretty common on the newer houses in Denver.
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That ain't all. Because of the soil conditions in some parts of denver, you can't have slabs in a basement, or on grade period. The footings are special "cassons" (I believe thats the term) or pier and post, or other type footings. I've even read where you can't build walls on some existing basement floors either(depending on structural elements). One person was told by the BID (Building Inspection Department), that lightweight partition walls must be HUNG from the floor above IN HIS HOME. This does not neccessarily mean the home you choose will have this limitation, but CHECK WITH BID BEFORE YOU BUY!!! Certain areas are prone to these soil condititions in Denver.
You lost me on the two leaf assemblies and the one leaf decoupled stuff. Where can I find some more info?
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I don't have time right now to go into it, and there is lots to learn regarding this stuff. But here are a few
sites to introduce you to the concepts.
Basic TWO LEAF assemblies are defined as any wall, floor or cieling assembly where ONE LEAF OF MASS is seperated from another LEAF OF MASS by a HERMETICALLY SEALED AIRGAP. This is called a M-A-M assembly(Mass-Airgap-Mass) Even in floors, a floating room has a MAM floor.
Ceilings and roof assemblies are two leaf although the attics are usually vented, so other concepts come into play. This stuff is WAY beyond the scope of one post to describe. Do some reading and then ask away. We will try to help enlighten you. However, direct advice at this point is useless. Especially considering you are in Denver. Best advice for buying a house there in regards to a studio, is PICK THE OWNERS BRAIN about existing structural elements, any remodeling, and if so, DID THEY GET PERMITS!!!
It might also be wise to have this home inspected for any settling, cracked foundations or footings and things of this nature. Well, I'm out of time. Hope this helps with the selection process.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=f8f186822f24bb012e5d73978154c7ca
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
fitZ
ps. Read the "reference section" at the Studio Construction forum. Steve is the moderator there and is a real knowledgable guy. He can help you too.
 
I don't know anything about basements in Denver but here's some ideas:

I'd look for a basement with high ceilings. Whether you go with room within a room or resilient mounting, you will lose ceiling height and may also lose some to ductwork.

Look at whether it is possible to beef up the sub floor above by adding drywall in between the joists or trusses.

Check for signs of water and high humidity and consider the earth grading around the perimeter of the house and the general lay of the land for flooding potential.

Consider the layout of the basement and whether you can be easily isolated from the furnace or any other noismakers down there. See how much of a hassle it would be to rearrange ductwork, plumbing, electrical, or anything else in the way of your room.

Consider the potential location of your room relative to other rooms upstairs. Best to have it underneath a seldom occupied area.

Consider the difficulty of carrying lots of sheets of drywall, doors, and other building materials down there.


Best of Luck
 
I'm in the Denver area...there are reasons for the wood structural basement flooring...mostly because of the expansive soils. Be aware that with this is also comes an additional concern of mildew/moisture retention under those floors...you'll hear pro's an cons to both. My recommendation would be to insist upon looking at the original soil surveys if you look at a place with a floating concerete slab. These floors will move a little but if properly engineered, you should have no problems at all. I have two homes on my property. I purchased the second when the place became vacant thinking I would turn it into a rental...long story...I'll spare you...anyways, the soil was listed as "Moderate" for both properties...both have full basements...I've lived here for nearly 10 years without a problem. About 2 years ago we completed a basement remodelling in the #2 property for the purpose of a multi-room studio without issue.

As for finishing the walls, on a slab situation, there are some additional building concerns but not it's not the end of the world...the walls are hung from the ceiling...again, to accomdate for concrete floating. This is something that is very commonly done in the Denver area and most contractors can deal with this easily. I actually found that is was helpful in the decoupling. The walls are basically finished using a slip joint of sorts at the base. I have been very happy with the results. Probobly the hardest thing to deal with has been the HVAC.

One of the posters suggested not setting your expectations high if you settle with a wood floor...he/she is absolutely correct. I have a close friend who has a wood floor in the basement...you can hear everything that goes on down there throughout the house.
 
Dang, learn something everyday. Never knew that about the basement floors in Denver. Is it mainly in Denver, or the entire front range?
 
I don’t know. Not all of Denver has the wood floors. Most of the houses in Highlands Ranch do. As probably most of the new houses do as well. Most of the older houses have concrete but to build to code you do have to float the walls. I haven’t noticed the floating walls to make any major difference with sound proofing but I definitely see how the wood floors will. I bet they act like a big speaker diaphragm and broadcast through the entire house. That sucks. There has to be something to do with that…
 
It's not just Denver...I don't live in Denver proper...but further south. As I understand it, the wood floor route is taken when soil samples force the situation...I know for certain that in some areas the wood floor is more common but there certainly are new homes being built today in say...Parker, Franktown and Elizibeth where new neighborhoods are being built with both wood and concrete basement floors. I heard that the structural wood floor is actually more expensive to build.
 
Ok, we looked at what we thought would be our dream house. Everything was perfect except for the basement. The basement did have a concrete floor, which of course is a plus. The problem is that every wall had a sound problem.

I have windows on two walls.

On the third wall is an opening into a crawl space under the house.

On the same wall is a drain pipe and the water main

the side wall with one of the windows also has a drain pipe.

The furnace would be difficult to work around but not impossible

The main killer I think is the A/C vent that runs down one side of the ceiling. This is the main duct for the house that runs the length of the room.

This really sucks because the rest of the house is perfect. With the size of house we are looking at I don’t expect to find anything completely perfect. So that being said, does this project sound impossible? I would have to figure out something to do with the windows, the crawl space and the A/C vent.

Here are some pictures and a link to a diagram
 
Dude, seriously consider your own outbuilding. We did it when we built and it's cheaper when you consider the cost savings of not having to sweat every sound proofing detail and it really makes life grand. I can crank up the death metal while spouse has church ladies sipping tea.
 
you put this stuff under your drywall for sound isolation.
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The ratings on this material is STC. It is rated for SPEECH, NOT MUSIC. Low frequency transmission loss requires MASS as well as decoupling. This material will do little in that regard. It will however, increase the TL at speech and high frequencies. To what extent it is relevant to your own situation is the key. However, these limp mass products are VERY expensive.
fitZ
 
What product do you know of that offers the mass you describe? I have seen the rigid rockwool/fiberglass products that are applied to the face of walls in order to diffuse and absorb. does this product offer greater mass to absorb the lower freq's?
 
I have seen the rigid rockwool/fiberglass products that are applied to the face of walls in order to diffuse and absorb. does this product offer greater mass to absorb the lower freq's?
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You are talking about two different animals here. Absorption has nothing to do with Mass. Nor does rigid rockwool/fiberglass products have anything to do with transmission loss. The product you linked to is a limp mass product that improves transmission loss at CERTAIN upper frequency bands, notably in the STC rated bands. which is speech bands.
fitZ
 
DogFood said:
I saw a killer construction material that may help in your project..

www.aknightcompany.com/productline/soundstop/ss_overview.asp

you put this stuff under your drywall for sound isolation.
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Dog,

this stuff isn't even a killer when it comes to the human speech and STC Ratings, this is straight form the manufacturer's site:

Nationally available SoundStop® achieves STC ratings of 42 and better when installed behind drywall.

For what it's worth - just so your posts in the future will be a bit more accurate - a decent wall (just decent mind you - not "good") is 54 or 55.

And that "good" wall rating sucks for a studio wall.

I just realized something - I responded to you in another thread - where you posted this:

I am ethical. If I am a dunce at that time I will be honest about it. If, however, I have learned a respectable amount of knowedge and am qualified to give good advice
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Practice that please. Understand something - until you learn what is good and what is not - until you learn what to reccomend vrs what is a waste of money - any bad advice you give can be thought to be of value from someone who knows little or less than you do.

You say that you're ethical - show it. Don't reccomend any product unless you know for a fact that it is going to do the job for the person spending the money. In this case the product you presented as "killer" is garbage - and if this gent followed your advice he would have thrown his money away.

Sincerely,

Rod
 
Dog, just to let you know, Rod IS a professional studio builder. Not ONLY that, he is an engineer and knows what he is talking about. Figure this is from...so to speak...the horses mouth. :D OPPS...sorry Rod :eek: No offense sir. :o

What product do you know of that offers the mass you describe?
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In a nutshell.. gypsum board...or generic speaking...drywall. The more layers the better. However, there is lots of details, structual considerations, keeping two leaf assemblies, the roof and floor and many others.
fitZ
 
Fret said:
Ok, we looked at what we thought would be our dream house. Everything was perfect except for the basement. The basement did have a concrete floor, which of course is a plus. The problem is that every wall had a sound problem.

I have windows on two walls.

On the third wall is an opening into a crawl space under the house.

On the same wall is a drain pipe and the water main

the side wall with one of the windows also has a drain pipe.

The furnace would be difficult to work around but not impossible

The main killer I think is the A/C vent that runs down one side of the ceiling. This is the main duct for the house that runs the length of the room.

This really sucks because the rest of the house is perfect. With the size of house we are looking at I don’t expect to find anything completely perfect. So that being said, does this project sound impossible? I would have to figure out something to do with the windows, the crawl space and the A/C vent.

Here are some pictures and a link to a diagram
Click to expand...

Your situation isn't all bad in my book...others may see it a little differently...we started out with a very similar situation. First we came up with floor plans for the final studio layout. We then consulted a general contractor. In the end, much of the plumbing and HVAC stuff was re routed together to consolodate. Then these services were hung with isolation hangers and enclosed. This wasn't all that expensive either. The biggest hassle was dealing with the HVAC ducting to keep sound from transferring and eliminating the hiss of the air when the AC was on. Remember, our facility doesn't have anyone living upstairs so, your biggest challenge will probobly be the sound proofing of the basement ceiling.

As for the out house option...I'm not so sure...as I mentioned earlier, we are working in an "out house"... we were still hearing outside noises, traffic, airplanes and stuff while recording on the main floor. That's when we opted to go into the basement which in the end was cheaper than sound proofing the entire upper story.

This won't be a cookie cutter solution...you'll need to do work out your desired plan and work it to the last detail before you start nailing up anything.
 
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