New Home, New Home Studio

[FALKEN]

I just purchased my first house, a 1987 with vaulted ceilings on a concrete slab, and we are right in the middle of a full renovation. We are doing all the bathrooms, the kitchen, and the floors, as well as some other things, since all the people will already be there. We have some of the ideas worked out, which I want to run past you, and others I don't even know where to begin.

I have been home recording for 15 years and this will be the culmination of my years of effort. I finally found a good space that should also sound good, and I have the opportunity to do whatever I want to it. Any help is greatly appreciated:

Floors: we selected a solid bamboo click-lock "floating" floor. This is a strand-woven bamboo, the highest hardness rating of any wood floor. it is 3/8" thick and will sit on a padding. I am concerned about the sound, that I might be selling myself short on this. My other options would be a glue down (I am on a slab) or just a stained concrete perhaps. Also, if I stick with the "floating" concept, I have been told to get a "premium" under-pad. Can anyone recommend one?

Separation: I will have a "jam room" which is adjacent to a "control room" (bonus room and extra bedroom). I would like to see about creating some separation between just these two rooms, so as to be able to place a mic and hear it on the monitors. It isn't crucial, it would just be nice. I was thinking to put green glue on one side of the wall and then add a 2nd layer of drywall. How does this sound? what can I expect?

Electric: I will already have an electrician out. Is there anything I should ask him to do for the studio?

Lighting: The room has "cup lights" that are on a dimmer. dimmers are supposed to be bad (but are so nice for jamming). What are my options here?

Wall Plate: Once and for all, what I really want, is to be able to leave the mics "set up" all the time, and just be able to hit record whenever, instead of having to run snakes across the house and clean up afterwards. In my current setup recording is such a chore because of this. I really just can't wait to have it set up permanently. I want to be able to run 24 XLR's into the control room, and 4 XLR's back, and 4 TRS's either way. This should cover all the bases. (my current setup is a 24 channel console and a 24 channel recorder). Where can I get the panels? Or should I make them myself? Also, would it be beneficial in the jam room to split the panel off or have extra ones in various places around the room to shorten cable runs to the panel?

Whole House Speaker system: We want to be able to listen to our "tunes" in any room or out on the porch. I don't want to pay a stereo company thousands of dollars to come in and do this. I know how to wire guitar cabinets, I understand ohms and watts. I can't seem to find where you find the speaker selector, or how that effects your stereo system's ohms, etc. I found some speakers on partsexpress.com but I'm not sure what I really need.

A/V closet: We have a small closet with attic access very close to the TV wall. Unfortunately, the TV wall is also a walkway, so we are thinking to put a flat screen on the wall, and hide the PS3, cable box, 5.1, etc, in the closet. I plan to build a small fan into the attic access panel in order to fan hot air into the attic. I was thinking to use the RF coverter which you place in the remote controls for each device instead of a repeater. has anyone here installed their own 5.1 system? I was going to soffit mount the front and rear speakers, but where do you put the sub???

we are so far behind on this thing I am resorting to asking for help, so thanks in advance!

 

[stainlessbrown]

I just purchased my first house, a 1987 with vaulted ceilings on a concrete slab, and we are right in the middle of ...

congrats!

here's my 2 cents

Floors: I put the click lock bamboo in my studio (and several other rooms). The first room to get was the spare bedroom/TV room- I did the floating floor- looked great at first and then the traffic areas started showing signs of lifting/un-clicking... to I emptied the room, removed the kick base and took the floor (messed up a few pieces), pulled out the pad and glued it down. That was ~4 years ago- has held up great HOWEVER it does dimple/mark with heavy items.

I glued it down in my studio and the drum riser, and what a difference between the original carpet and the bamboo in sound! plus housekeeping is much simpler. But... had to put a carpet piece under the drums, the keyboard throne, and cups under the Rhodes front legs.... and there's a few scuffs where amps got drug across rather than being lifted. No major damages... and gives it character

Separation: double wall with a space in between

Electric: run separate dedicated circuits (and on the same leg of power)

Lighting: Dimmers are noisy unless you get theatrical lighting dimmers... which are a bit pricey (I looked a while back and $400 (new) was the best price I could find (couldn't find any used ones) and they're considerably larger than double gang box. I settle for track lighting with fixtures that have individual on/off switches... not quite the same as dimming but there's still some flexibility. I also switched to the compact florescent bulbs- though some say florescent bulbs add noise Ihaven't noticed it (whereas using a dimmer, you could hear the hum/noise)... the CF's don't put as much heat intot he studo and there's a few different 'colors' now available
Wall Plate: I put in 12 4 plex XLR's (why 24 wouldn't worked... sometimes I wonder) I bought a used Mogami snake that someone had removed the multi-jack/stage box, stripped it down and got to use a good quality cable at a savings. Having them in different spots is nice- I seldom use cords over 10'- really saves the clutter of cords running here and there. In addition to the XLR's, I put 8 double headphone/balanced tacks in the studio. And I have 6 speaker lines run (but I no longer use them). Whirlwind, Sweetwater, etc offer the plates, empty or pre-wired. If you're handy with a soldering iron you can save a bunch of $$$. Orange County Speakers is a good source for clone XLR jacks and plugs. I have Switchcraft, Neutrik, and the clones- aside from cost 9and the fact that I'm not continually plugging/unplugging) with a decent soldering joint they work fine. 1/4" plugs is another story- buy a better grade- the cheap look alikes are pretty flimsy


Whole House Speaker system: You'll need a speaker distribution unit (Atlas among others offers then so you can select different areas, and they work the loading so you don't fry you power amp- all you need to do is run the wire

A/V closet: no opinion on this, I hardly watch TV (wondering why i pay for Dish???)

With the studio wiring/layout spend some time mapping it out based on likely placement of equipment and need for signal paths

Good luck!

 

[jhbrandt]

Floors: we selected a solid bamboo click-lock "floating" floor. This is a strand-woven bamboo, the highest hardness rating of any wood floor. it is 3/8" thick and will sit on a padding. I am concerned about the sound, that I might be selling myself short on this. My other options would be a glue down (I am on a slab) or just a stained concrete perhaps. Also, if I stick with the "floating" concept, I have been told to get a "premium" under-pad. Can anyone recommend one?

under pads do not float. You don't need a real floating floor anyway. The premium underpad is for impact noise reduction as well as lessening standing fatigue.

Bamboo is nice, looks good, but it is soft. Basically bamboo is grass. We have a lot of it here where i live.

I would recommend a snap-lock laminate flooring, if you want the wood look. They are very durable and work nicely for studio floors.

Separation: I will have a "jam room" which is adjacent to a "control room" (bonus room and extra bedroom). I would like to see about creating some separation between just these two rooms, so as to be able to place a mic and hear it on the monitors. It isn't crucial, it would just be nice. I was thinking to put green glue on one side of the wall and then add a 2nd layer of drywall. How does this sound? what can I expect?

Do do any of this until you know how much STL (sound transmission loss) you need. There are too many variables. I need to know the existing construction details, layout, and materials. What STL (in decibels) do you require?

Electric: I will already have an electrician out. Is there anything I should ask him to do for the studio?

You should have a separate sub-panel dedicated for the studio - I can give you details later... the devil is in the details. BTW, I don't recommend the previous advice given. Depending on the load, this could unbalance the main load on your electrical service. Do it by the code. It's there for your safety and benefit.

Lighting: The room has "cup lights" that are on a dimmer. dimmers are supposed to be bad (but are so nice for jamming). What are my options here?

Triac dimmers can be bad as they transmit hash in the electromagnetic spectrum. There are many dimmers on the market that do work well without transmitting too much hash. & if you wire the facility properly, use balanced lines, and run a 'zero-loop-area' plan for your audio AC. The devil is in the details and this is not them.

Wall Plate: ............ I want to be able to run 24 XLR's into the control room, and 4 XLR's back, and 4 TRS's either way. This should cover all the bases. (my current setup is a 24 channel console and a 24 channel recorder). Where can I get the panels? Or should I make them myself? Also, would it be beneficial in the jam room to split the panel off or have extra ones in various places around the room to shorten cable runs to the panel?

Several companies make patch panels - do a google search. Whirlwind comes to mind along with ProCo, etc. Look up Qcables - and see if Dennis is still around, he might could hook you up.
Q Cables Inc
4414 N Ridge Rd West
Ashtabula, Ohio 44004
USA
Tel: (440) 992-8113

Whole House Speaker system: We want to be able to listen to our "tunes" in any room or out on the porch. I don't want to pay a stereo company thousands of dollars to come in and do this. I know how to wire guitar cabinets, I understand ohms and watts. I can't seem to find where you find the speaker selector, or how that effects your stereo system's ohms, etc. I found some speakers on partsexpress.com but I'm not sure what I really need.

Parts Express is not bad... the in-wall speakers are designed to work right in the wall. I do recommend standard building insulation in the cavity where the speaker will be placed. - just run the wires, cut the holes, pop the speakers in. They will perform admirably. (do not expect audiophile accuracy from them).

A/V closet: We have a small closet with attic access very close to the TV wall. Unfortunately, the TV wall is also a walkway, so we are thinking to put a flat screen on the wall, and hide the PS3, cable box, 5.1, etc, in the closet. I plan to build a small fan into the attic access panel in order to fan hot air into the attic. I was thinking to use the RF coverter which you place in the remote controls for each device instead of a repeater. has anyone here installed their own 5.1 system? I was going to soffit mount the front and rear speakers, but where do you put the sub???

Yes. Done quite a few... This is "a whole nuther countrih" as Forest Gump said... I think you should PM me.

we are so far behind on this thing I am resorting to asking for help, so thanks in advance!

I guess it's too late to tell you that good design & planning is 90% of the job...

I hope this was helpful.
Cheers,
John

 

[FALKEN]

under pads do not float. You don't need a real floating floor anyway. The premium underpad is for impact noise reduction as well as lessening standing fatigue.

Bamboo is nice, looks good, but it is soft. Basically bamboo is grass. We have a lot of it here where i live.

I would recommend a snap-lock laminate flooring, if you want the wood look. They are very durable and work nicely for studio floors.

We are looking at a new kind of bamboo flooring which uses a new process called "strand woven", it has a hardness rating of 5 - the highest at home depot for a wood floor. I think we will be ok. It is going in our entire house not just the studio. How is Indonesia, btw? must be very exciting...

Do do any of this until you know how much STL (sound transmission loss) you need. There are too many variables. I need to know the existing construction details, layout, and materials. What STL (in decibels) do you require?

I don't require any STL. This is my home first and studio second, so I was just looking at ways to improve the STL without wrecking the house. I think we are going to have a company come out and blow insulation into the wall.

You should have a separate sub-panel dedicated for the studio - I can give you details later... the devil is in the details. BTW, I don't recommend the previous advice given. Depending on the load, this could unbalance the main load on your electrical service. Do it by the code. It's there for your safety and benefit.

We are definitely doing everything by code. I got the permits myself, and the electrician is liscensed and insured, and his work will be inspected by the county. He suggested putting the studio on a "separate circuit". Are you suggesting a separate breaker box completely? would this mean a separate ground? I definitely like the idea of "clean" electricity but still don't know how much truth there is in it.

Triac dimmers can be bad as they transmit hash in the electromagnetic spectrum. There are many dimmers on the market that do work well without transmitting too much hash. & if you wire the facility properly, use balanced lines, and run a 'zero-loop-area' plan for your audio AC. The devil is in the details and this is not them.

can you recommend a solution ?

Several companies make patch panels - do a google search. Whirlwind comes to mind along with ProCo, etc. Look up Qcables - and see if Dennis is still around, he might could hook you up.
Q Cables Inc
4414 N Ridge Rd West
Ashtabula, Ohio 44004
USA
Tel: (440) 992-8113

Parts Express is not bad... the in-wall speakers are designed to work right in the wall. I do recommend standard building insulation in the cavity where the speaker will be placed. - just run the wires, cut the holes, pop the speakers in. They will perform admirably. (do not expect audiophile accuracy from them).


Yes. Done quite a few... This is "a whole nuther countrih" as Forest Gump said... I think you should PM me.

thanks

I guess it's too late to tell you that good design & planning is 90% of the job...

I hope this was helpful.
Cheers,
John

Yes, it was, thanks.

 

[stainlessbrown]

jh- I'm confused by your comments regarding my suggestion to put on the same leg? I have/had heard this helps reduce noise - not so?

I have a 200A main, which feeds a 60 A sub-panel, of which 3 breakers (same leg) feed the studio, all control room gear have power conditioners (the outlets in the studio do not), and the other 3 circuits feed a whole house fan, GFI to a bathroom (of the studio) and an outdoor outlet (also GFI) and exterior security light

If I turn almost everything on in the studio...which is seldom, using an Amprobe on the each circuit I run from ~55% - 75% of breaker rating.

The house originally had a 100A panel and was upgraded to the 200A, along with the sub-panel by a licensed electrical contractor, county permit, etc. the 110 circuits are pretty even down the line, as to actual current draw, don't know, and not to concerned (unless I start kicking breakers)

 

[jhbrandt]

We are looking at a new kind of bamboo flooring which uses a new process called "strand woven", it has a hardness rating of 5 - the highest at home depot for a wood floor. I think we will be ok. It is going in our entire house not just the studio. How is Indonesia, btw? must be very exciting...

- That's great. That is the one that I would recommend. - Indonesia?... in spite of volcanoes, it is a tropical paradise & I am surrounded by the most beautiful people in the world... (my wife is the top of the list there..)

electrician ....... He suggested putting the studio on a "separate circuit". Are you suggesting a separate breaker box completely? would this mean a separate ground? I definitely like the idea of "clean" electricity but still don't know how much truth there is in it.

Yes, separate sub-panel. Balance the power coming off the sub-panel so that the load is evenly distributed across the 240V line. The neutral is basically a center-tap and the neutral will be tied to the ground in the sub-panel box and at the main box. Use a heavy gauge ground wire (preferably stranded copper) to the main box and from the main box to a ground stake nearby (not a water pipe). You should have a safety (alternate ground) to a water pipe with the usual strapping across the meter, etc., but your main low impedance ground should be the stake. A good dimmer test would be to use a singly coil pickup guitar like a tele or strat with amp as a 'detector' & dim the lights up and down. See how much buzz it makes in the guitar amp with the guitar turned up. Depending on the dimmer topology, some are quieter than others.

jh- I'm confused by your comments regarding my suggestion to put on the same leg? I have/had heard this helps reduce noise - not so?

Well, it can reduce the possibility of 240V potential between the two live legs of power. I think this idea began in live performance work when most guitar amps did not have grounds but only two prong AC plugs. A simulated ground to chassis was provided via a SPDT switch that chose one wire to shunt to the chassis through a 250V capacitor. - Whichever was quieter was probably the safest. However, there have been times when the bass player was on one leg of the power circuit and the guitar player on another, creating a possible hazardous potential of 240V between the two players. If they touched, it could be disastrous.
But, as far as I know, it never reduced noise.

I have a 200A main, which feeds a 60 A sub-panel, of which 3 breakers (same leg) feed the studio, all control room gear have power conditioners (the outlets in the studio do not), and the other 3 circuits feed a whole house fan, GFI to a bathroom (of the studio) and an outdoor outlet (also GFI) and exterior security light

Fans, being induction motors, can produce 'backlash' or pulses of energy reflected back into the lines because they are inductive. Inductor store energy and release it either as electromotive force or as electrical current (back into the line). This is why you get a buzz when the fridge kicks in...

To clean this up, you will need to provide a low impedance path to ground for this noise. Layout is very important. The noise will be present on both the live leg and the neutral leg. If the noise is excessive (it can also come from down the street, air conditioners, pumps, etc) you can install a filtered isolation transformer for the studio. Balanced power is also a solution.

Cheers,
John

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Separation: I will have a "jam room" which is adjacent to a "control room" (bonus room and extra bedroom). I would like to see about creating some separation between just these two rooms, so as to be able to place a mic and hear it on the monitors.

I don't require any STL.

It never ceases to amaze me. Falken...you can't have "seperation" without some degree of STL. It's like saying you want mash potatoes and gravy...but you don't want the gravy.

Even a standard two leaf wall with 1/2"drywall provides some degree of STL. However...is it enough? That's what you have to decide. Moreover, simply adding one layer of drywall with green glue may..or may not improve the over all STL between studio and control room, as the ceiling and or adjacent walls/HVAC ducts, doors etc may provide flanking paths that negate any improvement in one wall. Even the concrete floor can be a structural transmission path for impact noise such as drums.

Best thing you could do FIRST...is set up a set of drums in the studio and measure the sound transmitting to the control room.

Use an SPL meter and measure the SPL in both rooms. That will tell the difference, which in effect is the existing STL. Which will allow you to determine an appropriate TARGET for STL improvement. However, actual STL construction implementation is a "nuther animal" all together, as interpretation of the results do not tell you HOW to improve the STL, nor will it tell you which elements need additional mass...decoupling, re- routing or complete replacement..such as hollow core doors. This is exactly what "weak link syndrome" is about. And sometimes it simply requires "brute force" application.

But this all comes down to what you decide is "good enough". Remember though, any sound transmitting to your control room from the studio can mask the exact thing you are trying to hear on the monitors...ie...comb filtering in the studio. However, I won't write an essay on the purpose of a control room and how to achieve it. There are a thousand threads over the net that already do that. I'm just trying to show you one reason for WANTING STL.


BTW, personally, I disagree with Johns advice for "laminate" flooring. At least any of that cheap stuff that has a printed melamine surface with a MDF substrate. Any spills that stand over a half hour over a joint will RUIN that joint, via swelling of the MDF..believe me. It sucks. I used it in my little ole control room. Unfortunately, I left a door open once and my wife has cats....12 of them. I HATE cats) Besides..musicians like to drink.


Anyway, enough of my non expert opinion.
fitZ

Ps...John, what is your take on "neutral current"? And btw Faulkin, do NOT add ANOTHER "grounding rod" to your sub panel. Been there...done that I'll never play homeowner "electrician" ever again. When it comes to electricity, intuition is no substitute for firmly embedded knowlege. And "misguided" intuition may kill you.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Well, it can reduce the possibility of 240V potential between the two live legs of power

Isn't that odd. I' no electrician, but Local code calls for TWO isolated circuits at a kitchen counter...on differnt legs. I've often speculated on the potential. Of course, you're supposed to use GFI's, but sometimes I wonder. Murphy is simply another name for "potential".

 

[FALKEN]

It never ceases to amaze me.

Rick,
Let me re-place the emphasis for you:

I would like to see about creating some separation between just these two rooms, so as to be able to place a mic and hear it on the monitors.

I don't require any STL.

What I am saying is that I don't NEED any separation, but I would LIKE some separation. I am not willing to put in a 2nd wall or anything crazy - this is my house. I was just looking for some simple tips that might HELP, but there is no REQUIREMENT.

make sense?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I was just looking for some simple tips that might HELP

Ok. At the risk of overkill and stuffing my foot in my mouth...

1. Add 1 layer 5/8" drywall on the entire room. Caulk all joints prior to taping.
2. Remove any hollow core doors and replace with a solid core with a layer of 3/4" MDF added to door with offset for seals.
3. Remove existing door casing, and dd spacer to jambs to increase depth to match extra drywall. Caulk around jamb perimeter on both sides of wall. Replace casing and caulk at wall.
4. Add 2 auto trunk seals and wood stops to match on existing jamb.
5. Add threshold with seal.
6 Build and nstall baffle box on both HVAC supply and return ducts in attic(if they exist) and install decoupling for grills.
7. Build a decoupled mass pad for drums.
8. Remove all electrical outlet covers and caulk around boxes.
Install seals behind electrical cover plates and re install.
9. Same with any cable boxes and covers for studio wiring.
10. Possibly more depending on existing conditions...
11. Obtain and read Rod Gervais book.

however


Without knowing a bunch of details about various conditions in these two rooms etc, thats about all I can offer at this point.

Last tip. Take my opinions with a grain of salt if you don't need them.


Does that make sense?

 

[FALKEN]

yep. thanks for the help!

 

[stainlessbrown]

Isn't that odd. I' no electrician, but Local code calls for TWO isolated circuits at a kitchen counter...on differnt legs. I've often speculated on the potential. Of course, you're supposed to use GFI's, but sometimes I wonder. Murphy is simply another name for "potential".

The house I owned prior to the one I live in now was built in the 40's and had a the old screw-in fuse panels. Most of the outlets were 2 prong, although there were a few 3 prong outlets here and there, other than the outlet for the washing machine and garbage (which had a wire coming out from under the cover attached to a cold water pipe), most had no ground wire.

A band I was playing with was rehearsing in the house. I had my guitar amp (old Fender Twin with a 2 prong power chord) plugged into one outlet, and the PA, which my acoustic was plugged into into another (which had the faux 3 prong) . I went to change guitars and still had a hold of the electric (across the neck) when I grabbed the acoustic- the jolt was strong enough to drop me to my knees, up one arm, across my shoulders and down the other, before I could let go of the guitars- fortunately I was just a little shook-up from the experience and the guitars suffered surface scratches. The outlets were on different legs of power and the polarity of one was reversed so I got 220- I promptly started running a ground wire to each outlet. Although the new owner got the same antique fuse panel, all outlets were grounded... and had a 3 prong cord put on the amp so it would at least follow polarity protocols... and I bought a line tester which I've carried with me ever since

i don't recommend the experience for anyone

 

[jhbrandt]

Haha... Brilliant story, stainlessbrown, and exactly what I was talking about.

Rick,
Neutral current 'should' be non-existent because the neutral should be at ground or reference level. If you have current on the neutral, it means that the circuit is operating at high impedance... There could be a bad connection in the neutral line on the way to the panel. This is dangerous and can cause fires as it will heat up the relative high impedance joint. - this could be as simple as twisted wires in a junction box. - Actually code dictates that all neutrals in a junction box be connected together... grounds also.

I totally agree with you about the cheap laminates... the ones that I recommend are made by Wilsonart, Formica, etc. These are excellent and have 10 - 25 year warranties.

The only point I differ on is the necessity of your "7. Build a decoupled mass pad for drums." - Nice.. but not critical.

Cheers,
John