needed final mixdown tips--Sonar 2

wfaraoni

wfaraoni

ear art's not a science
GURU's Needed!!

Well, I know that plenty of you are more experienced than I am so I need some good solid advice.

Having just gone through the chris harris thread ( his song parts mixed by lots of folks) in the mixing clinic I have found out that somethings Im doing are not right or at least not optimum. Those guys are kicking my butt with the results they are getting.

Usually I just select the tracks I want to make into an audio wave file and ---File export!

Sometimes I bounce the tracks I want to one track using ---bounce to tracks-- and then ---export audio that way I can fiddle with the one track a bit before exporting it. checking the result for any wierdness that may have developed.

I try to maximize all the tracks output in the mix and adjust (down) from there. I never have anything clipping and (on) lighting the red meter tip.( the clip point 0db)

I apply effects sometime to an individual track at the fx area sometimes if theres more than 1 track the same, like maybe panned, Ill use an aux buss to save cpu usage and make the effect the same on all the same tracks. I only save destructively effects if Im running out of cpu power causing dropouts or distortion.


Anyway you get the gist of it , all pretty elementary stuff.

The problem!

The end result often has noise or distortion that some think is clipping but it is not. (according to the meters)
Also, the overall output volume that I get is far below what others get. I work at 44,100 and 16 bit

Ive got really bad ears so that does not help one bit! :(

Ive got plenty of computer under my belt as well.
1.6 gig pent 4
1 gig of ram
64 megvideo
7200 speed hardrive
sb audigy and a audiophile 2496 card
monitor through studiophile sp5b's

Heres the file I put together of the song mentioned above.
Do you hear any distortion? I cant but I dont hear lots of stuff :(

Juliet ----at the bottom I had 27 or so tracks I made out of the original nine to work with using my mixing technique

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1644&alid=-1


Heres a link to what messuggah was able to achieve.
http://hem.tyfon.net/wa0043/mp3/ > chrisharris julie
its got punchy bass a its clearer throughout???


Above all, Is there anything that Im doing thats not the best proceedure.

What do you think IS the best proceedure??


Ive researched this here but did not find any firm answers.

Thanks
Bill
 
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Bill:

The difference may be simply that many of these guys are "mastering" their files after they've been exported from their recording software.

Generally for my mixes, after I am satisfied with the mix in Sonar, I export a wave and bring it into Wavelab.

In Wavelab, I typically will bring the volume up using compression/limiting. I will also "eq" the total mix.

Oftentimes when the mix volume is increased, you find new things starting to pop out which require you going back to Sonar to tweak the original mix, and exporting a new wave file.

Much of what I've described above can be done within Sonar (i.e., export a mix and then bring it back into a new Sonar project). However, I prefer doing this in Wavelab.

Key to the above, though, is having the right tools for "post processing." I find the Waves Mastering Bundle ideal for this. But I'll warn you in advance, the stuff is pricey, and it will take almost as much time to learn to use them properly as you have already invested in learning Sonar.

Of course, on top of the above, are good ears (sorry :( ) and good monitoring equipment.

BTW, I didn't have a chance to listen to the mix you posted, so I don't know if it's distorting or not. Maybe try putting a brick wall limiter on the VMain when you export the mix - that should prevent any possible clipping.
 
dachay2tnr said:
Bill:

The difference may be simply that many of these guys are "mastering" their files after they've been exported from their recording software.........................................................................................................................................

Generally for my mixes, after I am satisfied with the mix in Sonar, I export a wave and bring it into Wavelab.

.....................................................................................................

BTW, I didn't have a chance to listen to the mix you posted, so I don't know if it's distorting or not. Maybe try putting a brick wall limiter on the VMain when you export the mix - that should prevent any possible clipping.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply dachay2tnr, Im not sure why Id have to export to another program to get a better result:confused: Isn't that what I bought Sonar for? Are you saying that other programs do a better job? if so why?


2. I tried the brick wall limiter and it works fine as long as you dont overuse it. I think the the ,fx limiter, actually works better though.
According to the visual meters and the waveform peaks , I do not have "clipping". I guess that you'd to listen to the difference in these two results to see what Im talking about.

It seems the more fx I use the more degraded or likely to get noises and artifacts the final output gets. Thats why I am asking about what is ,"The best way", to apply and save tracks and effects.


Anyone else got Ideas? Or should I take this to the mixing mastering clinic?

Thanks
Bill
 
Exporting your song as a .wav is the way to do it. You have to understand the difference bewteen a multi-track recording program, (Sonar) and Wave Editing or Mastering Software (T-Racks, Ozone, etc)
They really serve different purposes. The multi-track stage is about mixing tracks together so that all the elements are balanced and create a cohesive song, . The mastering stage is about editing the song as a whole, with Compression and EQ adjustments designed to raise the volume, add punch and clarity, and remove noise.
I use Ozone, which is about 200 bucks. I take my song in Sonar and export it to a .wav. Then I import it back into Sonar as a stereo .wav file with Ozone in the track effects bus and master it.

You can do something similar with other plug-ins, namely compressors, limiter, and EQ, but the results probably won't be the same as using a program designed specifically for mastering unless you really know what your doing.

I have just finished a new CD, and I have mastered the songs with Ozone for my personal reference, but for the final CD I am haveing them mastered by a pro who specializes in this very specialized field.

"Have you ever really wondered how much there is to know?" - Robert Plant.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
 
wfaraoni said:
Thanks for the reply dachay2tnr, Im not sure why Id have to export to another program to get a better result:confused: Isn't that what I bought Sonar for? Are you saying that other programs do a better job? if so why?
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Bill - it's pretty much as Aaron said. It's not a better job, rather it's a different job.

Let me try an analogy. If you were building a table, you would start by cutting the pieces, gluing them together, sanding, etc. until you have a nice looking finished table. That is what Sonar does for your music.

Once the table is built, however, you sitll need to add the stain, varnish and polish. That is what mastering does. It takes the finished table and adds the final touches to make it look/sound pretty.

You can use Sonar to do this, however, you still need to have the right plugins. The ones supplied with Sonar are not really up to the task (although I will confess I don;t have the Timeworks stuff that came with the XL version).

Even the pros have their mixes mastered - despite the fact they are recording in $1M studios using professional recording/mixing engineers. I can't say for sure, but I suspect that is the step you are missing, and that is a large reason why your mixes are not standing up against the others.

It seems the more fx I use the more degraded or likely to get noises and artifacts the final output gets. Thats why I am asking about
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That shouldn't happen unless you are misusing the effects. However, sometimes this will bring out deficiencies in the original recording. Are you working with 16 bit projects, or 24 bit projets?
 
wfaraoni,

I had a short listen to both of the tracks you linked to last night.. I think that you might want to have another look at the mix. Now I will admit that I still am new at it, however the ways that you mixed it might be different.. when you mixed did you look at the music or vocals first? I've got a gut feeling you looked at the music before the vocals, ie built up the song from the music, where the other track was built up from the vocals. Also, were you using much compression and if so how heavy was it?

I might be barking up the wrong tree. A song I'm working on at the moment is sounding somewhere between the two version of the Juliet song is sitting between the two songs... All I've done so far is faders at 0db... I've got a little more tracking to do and then I'll mix it. I'm going to start with the vocals and bring everything around it from there. Give everything space in the mix.. both EQ and panning.

Hope this helps,

Porter
 
Porter said:
wfaraoni,

I had a short listen to both of the tracks you linked to last night.. I think that you might want to have another look at the mix. Now I will admit that I still am new at it, however the ways that you mixed it might be different.. when you mixed did you look at the music or vocals first?
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thanks for the reply Porter.
Did you notice any distortion in my mix?
Yes, you are right I did do the vocals LAST:)
Its not clear to me how that actually makes any difference since I adjusted the db levels of all tracks before mixdown:confused: I adjusted all the tracks individually.

How about the final mix question. do you bounce tracks to 1 track or export from all tracks to your wav file?
why cant I get that popping bass?


Dachay, ""It seems the more fx I use the more degraded or likely to get noises and artifacts the final output gets. Thats why I am asking about best proceedure for final mix quality. What do you do as far as fx?
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That shouldn't happen unless you are misusing the effects. However, sometimes this will bring out deficiencies in the original recording. Are you working with 16 bit projects, or 24 bit projets?""

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answer: 16 bit because I dont hear a difference between 16 and 24 bit and it uses lots of cpu for 24.

I have noticed that if I use a lot of effects on several tracks the Computer CAN'T do all its being called to do and distortion or stalling can occur. In that case I usually bounce the tracks with the effects a couple at a time so the new track doesnt use fx cpu power once ive got it close.

I agree with you that I cant expect to get a result as good as a pro mastering would get. But the track I am comparing my sonar project to was done in COOL EDIT PRO with the same RAw tracks!! and it kicks my butt as far as sound quality goes!:(

Aaron, See above ... Im just trying to get the best result with what Ive got,,, No more $$$ for other programs. shouldnt a Sonar 2xl mix have all the features and quality of Cool edit?

Peace
Bill
 
wfaraoni said:
shouldnt a Sonar 2xl mix have all the features and quality of Cool edit?
Click to expand...
Yes, and Sonar should do it even better... ;)

Now, I haven't listened to the mixes (I don't have any speakers around here), but let's think:

Have you opened the mix in a wave-editor and looked at the wave form where one of the "clips" occur? Is it a seriously clip or just a very tiny one?

Have you analyzed the tracks for DC Offset? DC Offset can cause meters to clip without it beeing audible (it can also cause clips that is audible). I think CoolEdit should be able to do this...


This is starting to sound like what my destroyed SB Live! did to me before it burned itself....
 
wfaraoni said:
thanks for the reply Porter.
Did you notice any distortion in my mix?
Yes, you are right I did do the vocals LAST:)
Its not clear to me how that actually makes any difference since I adjusted the db levels of all tracks before mixdown:confused: I adjusted all the tracks individually.

How about the final mix question. do you bounce tracks to 1 track or export from all tracks to your wav file?
why cant I get that popping bass?


Dachay, ""It seems the more fx I use the more degraded or likely to get noises and artifacts the final output gets. Thats why I am asking about best proceedure for final mix quality. What do you do as far as fx?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That shouldn't happen unless you are misusing the effects. However, sometimes this will bring out deficiencies in the original recording. Are you working with 16 bit projects, or 24 bit projets?""

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
answer: 16 bit because I dont hear a difference between 16 and 24 bit and it uses lots of cpu for 24.

I have noticed that if I use a lot of effects on several tracks the Computer CAN'T do all its being called to do and distortion or stalling can occur. In that case I usually bounce the tracks with the effects a couple at a time so the new track doesnt use fx cpu power once ive got it close.

I agree with you that I cant expect to get a result as good as a pro mastering would get. But the track I am comparing my sonar project to was done in COOL EDIT PRO with the same RAw tracks!! and it kicks my butt as far as sound quality goes!:(

Aaron, See above ... Im just trying to get the best result with what Ive got,,, No more $$$ for other programs. shouldnt a Sonar 2xl mix have all the features and quality of Cool edit?

Peace
Bill
Click to expand...

Bill,

I can't remember hearing 'distortion' in your mix but the sound sounded flat... which could be from compression. As for the vocals, what is the main content of the song... well some people will disagree with this (like todays pop music / repetitive lyrics), but it is the vocals.. Start with them, then mix the music around them. Well that's what I think anyway. I read in one of chris harris's post that he normalises all of his tracks... this would be part of getting his vocal so 'in your face'.

As for mix down... File -> Export .. then to a final stereo mix. :D

Popping bass? I can't remember the songs too well, but that would most likely have to do with EQ... remember to listen to your mixes on different speaker because what you are using now might not give a true representation of the bass.

You say that you bounce your effects... that could possible be one problem... you don't hear it much, but everytime you 'bounce', you will hear some artifact's of the bounce... it won't be noticable until like the 3-4 bounce, but it does build up. As for the distortion, are you clipping the output? You have to watch the gain on some effects.

24 vs 16 bit.... 24 will make the artifacts seem less visable... most likely because of the dithering at the end to get it to 16bit/44.1KHz.

As far as feature of Cool Edit Pro vs. Sonar, Sonar should be better (with what it's got). When it comes to audio processing all programs (you would hope), could play more than one wav file at a time, it just comes down to what you do with the wav files as the to which effects and compression..

I just started to ramble there... some might be right, some might note, but what I said sounded OK to me at the time.

Porter
 
Moskus, there is no clipping : heres the final file mixed down plenty of headroom. -5db is where the peak is. Maybe theres not a lot of noise in there cause I really dont hear it. But the overall mix is dull compared to what messuggah did with the same files. Im afraid to go any higher because then I might get some clipping.


Image deleted because it was misleading. looked squared off so Im going to save bbs space while I can.

Bill
 
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Is it possible that the hiss/crackles/whatever is background noise from something? I mean I would mix a less headroom than around 6 dB for better SNR (Signal to noise ratio).
 
Heres a better shot. Theres no compression on this track
 

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I'm guessing that your previous tracks have a hard compression on them so that you can get your whole mix to sit under 6db... compression doesn't only have to be on the last track to make it look like that.

In theory, you could get away with no compression on any tracks and just set up a limiter to about -1db on the Master V Main out... that will stop clipping on the final mix down..

The sound will only clip in three ways... if it is tracked really bad and has clipping in the original track, or if you have the volume of a track set to + something that makes it clip, or it it clips in the final mix... clipping being +0db or greater.

Porter
 
I still think there's an issue with the 6dB headroom. Crank up the volume!

Tracking should be done between 0 dB and -6 dB. Never above 0 dB and never below -12 dB (if using 16 bit). The higher the volume, the lower the SNR (of the card itself, if that's the problem).
 
heres another track which I used timeworks to compress thats real squared off
 

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Anyway , porter,I agree that this is probably not a clipping isssue. Then why do these guys always say my songs are clipping?? Hey Ive got real bad ears and trust theres more :) but if theres noise in this song its not from the final output clipping IMHO.

moskus, I also agree 6db is way too much room.

hey if you guys get a chance give this song a listen and let me know if you hear noise.

Then listen to messugahs and tell me how to get it to there.

It is possible I flubbed something early on. because I did do a destructive save on some tracks. there was too many fx and tracks for my processor to work smoothly.




Peace
Bill
 
porter, Yes that first image was the whole song squezzed into 5 inches:) I deleted it!
 
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Actually I didnt think it sounded too bad until I saw what messugah was able to achieve with basically the same raw material. Mine doesnt have that bass punch or dynamic drums.

If I boost them to try and get more bottom in the final mix IT will clip!


Thanks guys be back tomorrow
almost 4am here

Gotta get some zzzzzzzzzzzzzz's


Peace
Bill
 
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