Need Some Tone

[Editor]

I've been out of the live music scene for a while (life ... mortgage ... wife ... pick 1 ;-) but I still manage to do a bit of home recording on the computer. Lately, an old buddy has been pushing me to come out & jam. The problem is that I don't have any good gear to play with -- a solid state bass amp (I HATE the sound of that thing ... lots of watts but no sustain whatsoever) and a knockoff Strat (not bad after I did some work on it).

In the old days (when I had hearing, money and the strength to carry things), I would have just picked up a Marshall or Hiwatt half-stack, a flanger and a delay pedal (I like tasty tone like Santana, Jeff Beck, Brian MAy, etc.) but these days, another part of the problem is lack of funds. If I return some empties (yuk yuk yuk), I might be able to scare up a couple of hundred bucks to buy some tone with.

Since I like the results I am getting running thru a plugin called Amplitube in my home recording environment, I was thinking of picking up a Line 6 Pod and plugging that into my Loud Transistor No Tone Device (amp).

Is that a not bad idea?

Anyone suggest a (cheap) better way?

 

[Ed Dixon]

POD gear tends to work best with PA style gear. One choice some use is to get a small keyboard amp and run the POD through that. The Crate KXB50 is one good example that costs about $280 new.

The other choice is to get a small power amp and a PA speaker. I use a Carvin DCM150, Carvin 15" floor monitor, and a POD XT Live.

Ed

 

[espskully]

You might get some OK tones with that setup. Is your amp really clean and transparent? On a budget that's a good way to go. Plus you'll have some built in fx like flange, delay, etc. Or you could look for a used Line 6 Flextone - I think you can get a used one for around the same price as a POD.

 

[-=¤willhaven¤=-]

Amplitube is ok for being just a software plugin. I tracked with it once and said "damn this sounds pretty good!" But when you listen to it back to back with a guitar track recorded with a miced cabinet, the difference becomes apparent.

For quick tracking of riffs and song ideas, something like Amplitube can't be beat IMO. Especially if you have to get out your mics, hook everything up, etc etc... the inspiration can be gone by then or you might forget some subtle nuance of the song that gave it the vibe that excited you in the first place.

I'm no tone expert nor a recording expert, but it looks like the parts I record with my mic are very compressed (no, I don't have a compressor pedal). The wave form is full and thick and the only real gaps you see are parts where I mute. The Amplitube tracks have a lot of ups and downs and look more like a roller coaster. With some EQing and some post processing or FX added to the Amplitube tracks, you could probably thicken it up considerably.

Also, if you can afford it, Waves makes really good plugins. Their EQs and compression are really nice.

 

[Editor]

You might get some OK tones with that setup. Is your amp really clean and transparent? On a budget that's a good way to go. Plus you'll have some built in fx like flange, delay, etc. Or you could look for a used Line 6 Flextone - I think you can get a used one for around the same price as a POD.

Yeah, the amp is clean ... too clean! I have another amp (these are both Traynor models) that I had rewired/reworked & sounds almost identical to an old Marshall. Trouble is that it is too heavy (big transformer) and too noisey (hums like a 80 pound 'lectric razor). I just have the amp--no speakers so I have to lug a cabinet around too. At my age, this does not make jamming a fun thing ;-)

As I said, I can live with the Amplitube types of sounds. I've never tried the Line 6 gear so I wasn't sure if it was useable in a live situation.

 

[Editor]

Amplitube is ok for being just a software plugin. I tracked with it once and said "damn this sounds pretty good!" But when you listen to it back to back with a guitar track recorded with a miced cabinet, the difference becomes apparent.

For quick tracking of riffs and song ideas, something like Amplitube can't be beat IMO. Especially if you have to get out your mics, hook everything up, etc etc... the inspiration can be gone by then or you might forget some subtle nuance of the song that gave it the vibe that excited you in the first place.

That's been my experience too. There's a bunch of us around here in our 50's that are no longer worried about 'making it big' but we still like to play once in a while. It's fun to fire up the computer & lay down a few riffs but playing with live musicians can't be beat.

 

[Lt. Bob]

The bass amp might have a power amp-in so you can bypass the preamp. That way you can use it like a power amp and run the POD into that.
I actually had to do that on a gig about two weeks ago. My Marshall decided to not work 10 minutes before the gig but I always carry a J-Station behind the seat in my truck ..... so I hooked up a Gallien Kruger bass amp I had handy ..... ran the J-Station (POD) into it and used my regular pedals in front of the J-Station. I found a good clean sound and then didn't touch the J-Station again, using my pedals for distortion and such. In about 3 songs I had it dialed in and it actually sounded good. haha
I was sure it was gonna just let me get by but it really didn't sound bad.

Also ..... despite the crap I'm gonna get for saying this. A cheaper way to go would be the Behringer V-Amp2. I have a POD and a J-Station and several Digitech units and I often like the sound of the V-Amp best. Costs only half of what a POD does. It is built lightweight however ...... so put it among your things that have to be 'babied'.

 

[Editor]

The bass amp might have a power amp-in so you can bypass the preamp. That way you can use it like a power amp and run the POD into that.

I'll look into that once I get home.

Also ..... despite the crap I'm gonna get for saying this. A cheaper way to go would be the Behringer V-Amp2. ... It is built lightweight however ...... so put it among your things that have to be 'babied'.

I'll look into that too Yeah, I hear Behringer makes things 'light' but I'm just looking for casual use anyway. Is the V-Amp like/the same as the VAMP? (I think I have seen the VAMP advertised around town)

Does the V-Amp2 have built in effects as well?

 

[jfrog]

I think the advice you're getting in this thread is steering you in the right direction. You might also consider Line 6's FBV pedal board. A buddy of mine has one & likes it. I think it's kind of like an advanced POD with expression pedals, I think.

 

[soundchaser59]

I have actually become very fond of the Traynor sound. If you just want to jam at a friends house, you might consider getting their TRM40. It's lite enough to carry anywhere in one hand, but ballsy enough to give beefy rhythm and screamin leads that are just right for a basement jam, beautiful yet subtle chorus fx in it, and free shipping on it, all for $150.

If you want more versatility, I would steer you to the somewhat newer Vox AD15, AD30, or even the AD50 Valvetronix line. I just got the AD50 and I love it. It is easy and fast to learn, and I can dial in a great sound in a minute, where the same sound on my old Line 6 would have taken me an hour to tweak. The AD30 is probably perfect for house jamming, and runs around $240. I figured the extra power of the AD50 was worth the extra $$$$$$. It's the best amp I've ever owned, especially considering that I was stuck on the solid state hayrack ride for way tooo many years..... In fact I got rid of my Line 6 AX2-212 after I started playing the Vox.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Does the V-Amp2 have built in effects as well?

Yes ...... and it should be the same as whatever you're seeing around town. Version 2.0 is just the newest software and that should be all that's left out there by now although you want to make sure it is a V-Amp 2 because I understand the ealier versions were pretty noisy.

 

[Thatupstateguy]

If you have a local music store you already frequent, and they have some savy techs,... ask if you can try out some stuff,...
Bring your instruments to that place, spend an hour or more swapping to different used gear,...( pay close attention here,.. lots of good used gear, but lots of dogs too,....!!!)

Secret is to look for something in a metal box instead of plastic,... thinking is that if the folks who made it scimped on the box,.. maybe the electronics got the same thinking.....
ask some qusetions,... and something like the Vamp may be a good choice for you,... but try out some stuff first,.... if you find one you like,( Pedals,...).... in one of the amps at the store,......chances are you will like it played thru your own amp.....

Digitech RP3 is a very good choice,... for example,... and there are several others,...

if you find you only use two or three effects,... then individual pedals for each would be the way to go,...

many choices ,... gotta try before you buy....


only my opinion....


Steve

 

[Editor]

I have actually become very fond of the Traynor sound.

Really? In Omaha? Wow! I didn't realise they made it out of Canada ;-) I grew up with Traynor...wasn't much else to choose from in the old days. They were/are built solid. I distinctly remember dropping one off the back of a truck more than once

If you just want to jam at a friends house, you might consider getting their TRM40.

What I'm really looking to do is put together a system using the solid state amp (it's a MONO BLOCK). I think the 'amp modelling' idea is the right direction. I just made some calls about the V-Amp2 ... looks like my answer At $169 Canadian, it's in my price range. (I found a used Line 6 Pod XL for $199)

Thanks for all the advice

 

[jeffree]

Editor, I'll let you in on my little secret. I've been a (paid) session guitarist for many years, typically using my Musicman RD50 amp with a tube preamp, sometimes mic'ed and sometimes direct. For the past few years, though, I've used my Johnson J-Station (mostly with a Guild Starfire IV and Fender double-neck slide) more and more with solid results. My secret? Mainly, to cut back severely on the high freqs of virtually every guitar sound, whether clean or dirty. Even if the tone "is about right" to my ears at first, I've learned that dropping additional high freqs, sometimes dramatically, really warms up the sound in the mix, leading to something that approaches that warmer tube tone that most guitarists desire. I then do as little as possible to process the sound-- I approach compression, reverb, and the like with the mantra "as little as possible." Paying clients have been satisfied and a recent critic (in a Recording magazine critque) called my electric guitar tones "solid," just what I'm shooting for. Well, I'm simplifying things a bit here, but this overall approach works pretty well for me anyhow.

I make no claims about POD vs. V-Amp vs. J-Station, except one: from my in-store tests and research online, the discontinued (but still available) J-Station may lead the pack in terms of cleaner, non-distorted tones. It does a great job in, say, the jazzier or country realms, for both regular electric and slide guitars. Personally, I use and like its crunch sounds a lot, too, but I know that the other brands are strong, maybe stronger, contenders in this area. Choosing a modeler/processor is certainly a personal choice based on personal preferences, so do try to have a listen before buying.

And don't give up until you find your sound, eh? It's out there.

J.

 

[iratecaller666]

hey

Keep the bass amp. That's power you're gonna need.

Personally, for quality, I'd get a good distortion pedal and a reverb or delay pedal.

Then suddenly, it's the real mcoy. Your amp is powerfull, lots of balls. The distortion pedal will drive the preamp and the reverb will fatten up the sound a bit.

Then since your setup is modular, you could add components as your budget sees fit , over time. The modular approach allows you to carefully choose 1 single peice at a time. By trial and error, and returns to the store, you build your tone from the ground up without compromise. Real deal. You wind up with a totally unique sound, that's all your own!

Or you could buy a digital modelling gadget. Your choice.

Best modelling gadget around: yamaha digi stomp.

Those things sound really good and they have basic fx I think.

(I say "I think" because i own the yamaha dg-1000 rack preamp .. which is similar but has no fx. Adore the unit. It's almost as cherished as my Triaxis. I've owned a v-amp for months and have fiddled a bit with pods. Yamaha wins hands down .. for me. I found that the other modellers including the PC based alternatives lack definition. Even the yamaha lead sounds are lacking, but if you push the 'drive2' sound hard enough, it really comes out in a mix.)

 

[Editor]

Some very interesting opinions & ideas around here. Thanks for the insight Jeffree and all others.

I've always found 'the right tone' to be a very elusive thing. There was a time when I played my 1959, single cutaway Melody Maker (same as Leslie West's except with a 3/4 size neck) through a Yamaha twin 12 solid state amp--no pedals, just the 'distortion channel' on a footswitch. All kinds of compliments about my sound yet I always felt that I had to fight every note to squeeze sustain & tone out of that rig.

The most comfortable I ever felt was running my '75 Les Paul with a Bigsby tailpiece through a 50 watt Hiwatt head and (get this), an A7 PA cabinet (Altec design ... 1 15" speaker mounted in a horn, open front). Beautiful sound to my ears. Almost all mid-range. The guitar just about played itself.

So, I know what I want but not being a pro musician these days means that I have to be an adult (rats) & make a few compromises. I mean, I still have my eye on that 1957 MGA, the Complete Trailer Park Boys DVD set & a new table saw right?

 

[bpr103]

I second the Vox

I picked up an AD30VT about three weeks ago and love it. It's perfect for jamming in a small space, and I wouldn't be afraid to mic it. My brother, whose Marshall half stack sits in a closet, came to my apartment and almost missed the Thanksgiving turkey because I couldn't get him out of the studio. As for the presets, the Boutique Clean is fantastic for jazz, the Boutique Overdrive will give you that creamy Santana lead, and the ones in the middle will fill in the blanks. There is some high frequency noise if you don't dip the treble on some of the presets (the black combo, I think it's called, is pretty noisy), but the bottom line is, I wouldn't buy anything else under five hundred bucks. I am primarily a pianist who dabbles with acoustic guitars and vocals; this purchase was better than any of my guitars, mics, preamps, keys or synths, hands down. I'm playing my Telecaster more than ever.

 

[oh_the_blood]

i agree about the vox except i have the 50 watt one.

I talked the guy down at guitar center to 300.

You can also adjust how many watts you want to use in the back without sacrificing tone which is really good for praciticing at home with about 20 watts then going on stage at full blown 50 watts.

It is extremely loud also.

 

[jeff5xo]

Some very interesting opinions & ideas around here. Thanks for the insight Jeffree and all others.

I've always found 'the right tone' to be a very elusive thing. There was a time when I played my 1959, single cutaway Melody Maker (same as Leslie West's except with a 3/4 size neck) through a Yamaha twin 12 solid state amp--no pedals, just the 'distortion channel' on a footswitch. All kinds of compliments about my sound yet I always felt that I had to fight every note to squeeze sustain & tone out of that rig.

The most comfortable I ever felt was running my '75 Les Paul with a Bigsby tailpiece through a 50 watt Hiwatt head and (get this), an A7 PA cabinet (Altec design ... 1 15" speaker mounted in a horn, open front). Beautiful sound to my ears. Almost all mid-range. The guitar just about played itself.

So, I know what I want but not being a pro musician these days means that I have to be an adult (rats) & make a few compromises. I mean, I still have my eye on that 1957 MGA, the Complete Trailer Park Boys DVD set & a new table saw right?

Just my opinion, you may not find the "right tone" using Pod XT Live. And the only way any amp modeller will reach it's potential is hooking it up to FRFR system. (PA or keyboard amp) If you played through tubes, you will not be "blown away" by the Pod. Don't get me wrong, you may find usable results, but it just doesn't come real close to the real thing. I've owned the original POD (which was very good @ recording), as Flextone II (a very admirable attempt at modelling) and a Pod XT Live (total crap!) If you're thinkin of getting an amp instead of just a all in one unit, I would second getting a Flextone. They're not well built, but if you're just talking about a gig here and there, it will do just fine.

You seem like you're leaning towards the V-AMP. I bought this thing before I bought the POD. It was SO noisy. Do you have the ability to take your amp up to like Guitar Center and try the V-AMP, POD, and POD XT LIVE out??? All of us have opinions, but ultimately you'll have to decide what's best for you.

I played through the Flextone II for 2 years, and I never had a problem with the sound, but the amp literally just fell apart. I currently own a Triple XXX head, Line 6 4-12 cab and use Boss GT-8 for effects. The GT-8 is great for effects, but just like the others, sounds sub par when it comes to distortion. (unless hooked to a frfr system...sounds a little above sub par then!) I don't think I'll ever be able to go back to Solid state. My amp is no MESA, but it's just way warmer than any solid state I've ever played through.

The only reason I bring all of this up to you, is simply because I was led down the wrong path. I fell into all the hype of modellers. To date I've spent 1145 bucks just on amp modellers and have been let down by everyone.
The GT-8 is the best it's gotten for me, and I'm still not satisfied.

I think it would be in your best interest to go try these things out on your system. I was foolish. I didn't try them out on MY stuff. I used what THEY had the things hooked to. Spend ALOT of time trying to dial in some sounds. Again, I was an idiot. I spent maybe 20 minutes messing around with the POD XTL. Got it home, spent the next 3 weeks on Line 6 forums trying to figure out how to get the thing to work right with what I had. Do as much research as you can. Go to line 6 forums and look around and ask questions.

Bottom line is, this is ONE person's opinion on your question. You may LOVE the V-AMP, POD, or POD XTL. Just try them out first! Good luck Bro!

 

[Editor]

Just try them out first! Good luck Bro!

All good words Jeff but I think I may have underexplained my situation. Right now, my decision on which piece of equipment to buy is based on

A) priorities
B) cash

I am no longer a pro musician (sounds like a lot of you guys are) and I'm strapped for cash. My idea of 'Home Recording' has been reduced to sitting in front of my PC, plugged into a DI box, twiddling virtual knobs on Amplitube and making 'beep' & 'bop' noises (drums) in Fruityloops & Cubase. Not the best but I think the idea is to keep making music, right?

I may indeed have to go with the cheapest piece of plastic (V-Amp) which may (probably) fall apart but at least it will let me get out of the house once in a while, when 'the good ole' boys' invite me out to jam

The amp modellers are appealing because (even though the boys always lend me their amps and such) I would be able to at least know what to expect in terms of sound/tone. Secondly, I don't know what conditions are like where you live but up here, the prospect of lugging 100 pounds of equipment up the stairs, across icy driveways and back home again doesn't make the jamming experience a pleasant one

Third, there aren't a helluva lot of music stores around here--there are a few always willing to take your money but not much variety/choice/competition.

All the advice I've heard here has helped. I will probably go for the $199, used Pod just because (from what you guys tell me) it is built stronger.

Again, thanks for all the opinions