Need some help guys!

S

soundprizm

New member
Hey everyone!

I'm doing a demo for my band, and everything sounds good to the bandmates, they're happy with it... but for the hell of it, I posted a couple tracks up on Reaper's forum and got some feedback that made me rethink the sound I came up with.

I'm frustated as hell! I just got back in the mixing game a couple months ago, and I just can't get these sounding any better! Granted, I don't have a "quality" treated room with $1000+ monitors, but I have decent equipment.

I'm looking for some advice/feedback on how to make these mixes sound better, or whatever else someone might like to add. To the band, they're at the final mixing stage, just wanna "master" them by putting some compression and a tad of eq, bringing the volume up.

Don't worry about being harsh, all and any feedback is appreciated! Tear it up!!

Sik Fiction - "Payback"


Sik Fiction - "Nostalgia"
 
For mixing in poor conditions it ain't bad. The kick drum seems a little too much in-your-face with upper midrange. The "klick" sounds good, it's just a little too hot.

Did you use more than one mic on the guitars or are they processor/pedal direct? I would probably fatten up the guitar and lighten up on the bass. (But that is just personal taste. It works either way.)

Good job so far.
 
Commencing "tearing it up"

The EQ on this, unless the source recording is absolutely horrible, could be tweaked to result in a dramatic improvement. Most recordings (as far as I know, but that ain't much) have a dip in the 2-3k range, mostly because most ears find that frequency grating. It seems like these recordings did exactly the opposite. If I turn this tune up at all, my ears complain loudly, and it basically becomes unlistenable (again, this is just my opinion - hoping to help out)

I'd be interested in hearing what the source material sounds like - because some recordings are incredibly difficult to "tune up".

The bass-end of the recording is almost non-existent. I'm not sure if that was the intent, or whether the recording was just mastered to have no low-end.

The song itself seems to be well-written, and the musicianship didn't have any problems. I would have enjoyed the song quite a bit if the recording would have let me.

Anyway.. Hope that helped.
 
A few highly subjective pointers...

After listening to it a bit more, it seems that most of the midrange which grates on my ears has to do with the bass-drum "click". It's incredibly prominent - almost in its own audio space. It seems a bit out of balance with the rest of the mix, and doesn't seem to be backed up with any kick-drum beefiness.

Get rid of that, and boost the bass guitar up a bit, and I believe that'd help a lot.

Sorry for the harshness of my first post. After reading it, I realized there wasn't much constructive criticism there. After listening to your tunes a few more times, I realized it wasn't as bad as my post made it sound, although improvements definitely can be made.

Keep at it!
 
RawDepth said:
Wow, we must have very different subs. I am hearing lots of low end on both songs. In fact it sounds good from my chair. :confused:
Click to expand...

Hmm... Maybe that's the problem. I'm listening through headphones. Maybe the only frequencies which are representing the low-end are sub-bass. Possibly augment the 100HZ+ bass a bit? Dunno... Just sharing my thoughts.
 
Stashbox download speeds suck. I'm pulling 46k/sec.:mad:


Payback:
There's alot of sub 100hz activity goin on. Not much of it is kick tho. Sounds like you're really fighting your mixing environment. There's so much attack on the kick, and it's residing in the same space as the high toms, that they're almost indistinguishable when they're playing together. This mix seems to be missing alot of lower-mid range. I made modest bumps in the 250-550hz range and the difference was very worthwhile. The snare took on some life from this as well which seemed to be way to thin for this style. The soundfield feels very narrow as well.
Depth is good...nice choice of reverbs..short and sweet with lots of space for the layers of instruments to stack in.
Guitars seem a bit sterile...and maybe just a bit back in the mix. Probably some eq tweaking in the 2-5k range to be done here.
The bass is very present in the low end, but not much definition. Again, working the upper mids (1k) will probably give this track some life.
The mix is not bad...it certainly is listenable, but it's just not popping yet. Keep at it. Vox are very well tracked and mixed. Nice work there.

Nostalgia:
Shares alot of the same traits as Payback. Uber present bass at 100hz and below, most of which belongs to bass guitar. See the kick comments above and apply them here. Toms seem to stick out at times (1:17- 1:22). Needs waaay more snare.

The guitars seem a little more present in this mix....still a bit lifeless, but better. The guitar lines certainly need to be bumped when they're doubling that riff with the bass (1:56).
Again, the vox tracks are the best here. Very well done.




Keep at these mixes. They're about 70% of the way there.:cool:
 
You guys rock!! I knew I could count on the fellaz over at homerecording.com! :D I'm gonna take in everything and go to work on these mixes right now...

I've been fighting these mixes for quite some time, feels like everything is fighting with something, so my game plan was to isolate everything so it has its own spot so then I lose something and so on and so on... Hopefully now that its pin-pointed, I'll get it!

I'll be back with some kind of results in the mornin' for sure...

If anybody has anything to add, feel free! :cool:
 
I have something you can try to guide your ears:

Most aesthetically pleasing, professionally-recorded music has a certain shape when looking at the levels of the freq bands as the tune plays.

I loaded and played the first tune on WMP...with the freq graphic display...and right off the bat, I could see exactly what P Intensity heard : the 4k-8k range was blasting. The bass range and low mids were deficient....and the 'air' at 16k was lost in the basement. The shape, based on references of 'band tunes'...DR/GT/Bass/Vox/Keys...was the first major clue that the record was real whack.

The Windows Media Player , in that graphic mode, has EQ sliders. I messed with them to get a much better shape to the freq bands, tweaked thusly:

31Hz = flat
62Hz = +4db
125Hz= +5
250Hz= +6
500Hz = +5
1k = +1
2k = flat
4k = -9
8k = -9
16k = +8

The shape looked righter...and, by hitting the bypass, and comparing the two EQ's, I felt the fix put the tune in the ballpark of a decent sounding EQ mix, too. The improvement was huge. I don't know how the mix or master or original tracks, all assembled, got that far away from a reasonable EQ....but the end result is a monster.

Now, about the drums. They sound screwed-with real bad. If they're recording that way, something has to be fixed, I think. They don't sound like drums. More like trash bags filled with wet clothes. What the can-wizards here usually menton as the result of uber-compression.

Did you mess with the tracks a lot ...EQ-ing, compressing,etc?? Sounds like they had the stuffin' knocked out of them....like what happens when y' start doing that to solo'd tracks, without waiting to hear the final result when all put together.

Anyway, the next biggest thing is moving the guitars out of center. It, or they, are playing near dead center...on top of the drums, vox, and bass. There's not a decent stereo image goin' on. If it's one guit track, move the bass to one side, and the guit to the other. The record is verging on mono.

Bump the vox. It's the feature. Feature it...fill that center!

The kit has componants playing way out L&R, IIRC. Maybe narrow the field for the kit? The mental image is of other players hitting percussion in the wings, offstage, or something. Maybe close your eyes, and try to 'see' what the pan and mix are telling you...just like you walk into a place where a live band is playing: you close your eyes...and you get an imaginary picture, based on sound clues. That might help you jigger the pans better?

Your band's thing is interesting. Just gotta get it sounding as good on tape as it...I'm sure.. does live. Not easy! :^)
 
In payback the only time the bass was apparent was after 2.30 when the guitars has dipped. Seriously missing a clear bottom end and definition. For the bass try this: cut 6dBs at 100Hz, Boost 5dBs at 200Hz & boost 6 dB at 3Khz (each of those should be fairly narrow Qs. This'll move some of the bass energy up the freqs & give more defintion.
Throw a high pass filter across instruments - one at a time & play back the same section of the song - this'll give you a clue as to what's providing the overload & throwing the fundamentals out of whack. When you've found which it is - listen carefully & decided whether the track is improved by that taming, needs more/less etc.
Listen to a mix on 1/2 dozen different machines in as many formats as you can get your hands on - that'll give you a clue to what does/doesn't work across a range of playbacks.
Remember MP3 conversion cuts a lot out & what's gone, whilst technically not audible, has an effect on what remains.
DON'T MIX WITH A SUB!
Unless your sub is tuned to the room & source to reproduce the necessary bass frequencies that the other speakers don't (& not duplicate/overlap etc what little they do) and isn't artifically boosted to PUMP up the bass you'll probably end up going for surround sound cinema earthquake levels.
The earth may move for you but anyone listening without the same set up won't feel moved at all.
Compression is a dangerous thing - it took me ages to learn that: it's not a tool for increasing volume & shouldn't be used where automated faders will do the job of leveling out a track either. It can be cool when used well - I'm not there yet.
You need to read a little about the Volume Wars, limiting & compression.
In the meantime go back to your source material & remove all the compression, automate the faders to adjust levels, listen to the overlap of instruments & try to "EQ Carve" some space for each one.
Drums - they're a monster at the best of times: suss out the recorderman method, amongst others, in the drum section as well as tuning into the idiosyncratic recording mixing methods of RAMI & Greg L - they're stylistically different BUT their method is superb & universal for capturing the essentials of a madern drum kit - which you can treat later as desired.
the songs seem good BUT they're almost unlistenable in their current form.
I don't mind the near mono mix, I quite like mono actually, & if you leave your stereo image like that it'll help you with your EQ carving - though you'll need to pan & spread the soundstage after that's done.
Keep at it. You've taken on a difficult genre to produce & mix; it's filled with biases & preconceptions that are, in part, based on ipods, ear buds, low grade MP3s and 5.1 surround sound : in other words the modern listening environment.
 
You guys are seriously the shiznit! More detailed feedback than I expected, and very useful!! Gonna need a couple days to work on these mixes and post back with some good stuff... hopefully!

From your help, I realized my approach was a big error... Like I said on the reaper forum: Seems as though I sucked the life out of everything to try and make everything have its own spot in the mix... kinda like trying to make green from blue and yellow, whilst keeping them separate... not gonna work unless you put them together!:D
 
Soundprizm,

Well, I would take all of this with a grain of salt. Several people have given you advice on these songs. (And that's good, they are all genuinely trying to help you.) All of the advice was different because they each listened to your songs on different systems, and were making judgments based on low-quality copies (mp3's) of the songs.

Only you have the original versions so here is what I think is the most logical approach...

Burn a CD and listen to the songs in as many different systems/places as you can. Try to listen on at least 6 or 8 different stereo systems. As you listen on each system make notes as to what needs fixed. (i.e., too much cymbal, not enough bass, vocals too shrilly, panning too wide, etc.) Take your time and focus your attention on each and every instrument one at a time as well as the overall mix in general. You could even have two or three people make their own separate notes. Then sit down and compare all of the notes from each listen. Anything that has been written/mentioned multiple times should be considered as needing attention. Make some fixes to your mix and then repeat the process until it sounds good (at least decent) on all systems.

I hope this gets you closer.
 
Last edited:
...and, most important:

Keep going, and never give up. Each project will be better. Save your platforms, and in a couple years you can go back and breeze through the mixes and masters and make great work out of past labors that didn't pan out too well, if you record every day, and develop ears, taste, and gain knowledge.

Everyone can give you advice...most of it very good, indeed; but, until you discover for yourself by doing, it's hard to grasp, fully. You'll have 'lightbulb' moments, and old advice from a year before will take significant new meaning..."OH YEAH!!! [smack forehead.]

A lot of would-be's can't get past the frustrations of early work. It's a marathon...train every day. YOU WILL MASTER THE TRADE!
 
Finally have some mixes to share from all the feedback! They're up at http://www.myspace.com/sikfiction If you guys can't stand myspace, let me know, I'll put another link up... the other hosting sites were getting some pretty horrible bandwidth speeds...

I'm pretty sure that's the best I can do with what I have to play with... just so you get an idea, this is my setup:

Tascam us1641 going into Windows XP and REAPER
20'X20' Basement (Painted Drywall on ceiling and walls, ceramic tile)
Monitoring on headphones and some klipsch promedia 5.1 speakers
 
Just a quick note: My 5 year old was sitting with me when I turned it on. The language was a complete surprise and I switched it off as quickly as I could. (Too late though)
Not judging your content by any means but a clear warning, upfront is always a good idea.
Good luck with the recording. The few seconds that I heard sounded like you know what you're doing.
 
Whoops! Sorry about that, I sometimes find myself in my own little world. :D

But yeah, "Payback" is really the only naughty one... Thanks for checking out the songs though! :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top