Need advice for a live recording please...

S

Speedy VonTrapp

New member
Here's what I have going. I'm going to be taking my gear to a band rehearsal so that they can have some live recordings. Probably only about 4 songs. It's in a basement, and the room is fairly small.

Here's my mic locker:

SP-B1
2 MXL 603's
2 SM 57's
1 SM 58
1 Peavey Diamond V22

I think that the singer of the band probably has his own mic for performance, most likely a 58, but I'm not certain of this yet.

I run through a Behringer 1208 FX-PRO into a Yamaha MD4s.

I'm basically looking for some setup help here.

Here are the stats for the job:

They term themselves an "Alternative Metal" band. It's definitely loud. The drummer has a HUGE kit on a cage. The guitar player plays through a Marshal stack. (Not sure on the model yet.) Bass player has a killer rig as well.

They said the room is treated with some sort of material on the walls. I've seen the material, and it's super thin and grey. I'm not sure what it is, or what real effect that it has, but based on what I've read around here, and Ethan Winters site, etc, it probably doesn't do a huge amount.

I'm pretty limited to 4 tracks, unless I want to mix a few tracks together before it hits the disk.

I'm planning on running the bass direct, mic the Marshall with a 57, run the vocals through a 58, or the Peavey, (it's my personal favorite on my voice for live vox between it and the 58,) and mic the drum kit with the B1. I've got an FMR-RNC, I'll probably throw on the B1. As of now, I'm planning on putting it as far from the kit as possible, so that I get the whole kit, while picking up as little of the marshall as I can. Probably about cymbal high, aiming down toward the drummer to hopefully pick up the kick.

Everyone will be wearing cans.

I'm hoping to have some sort of isolation set up as well. Basic and low budget as it might be, I'll probably have some matresses surrounding the drumkit, and something similiar for the Marshall. Just to minimize the bleed.

I realize that the amount of mixing after the fact will be pretty limited, except for the bass, because it will be the only input not from a microphone in the small room. But, I've done this kind of thing before with fairly decent results, and I feel like I'm ready to give it a go here this way.

I'm wondering if someone has an idea for something that would drastically improve my results in this situation. It needs to involve no money, because I just don't have it to spend, and these are friends, and I'm giving them a break on the charge as it is.

Would anybody suggest using more microphones, and just mixing the bass and drums together before it hits the disk, so that I can have more sources? Possibly hang the 603's over the kit, and mix that track with the bass track? Or put another 57 on the Marshall, just to see what the sound will be, and add those 2 together? I'm aware of these other options, but I won't have the luxury of testing them first. I'm comfortable with the setup that I've planned on using. So, if I need to experiment with others, I'll just have to do it another time, or possibly with just one of the songs this night, and stick with my comfort zone for now, just so that I won't be charging them for crap. :)

Thanks in advance. Sorry about the long-windedness, but I wanted to answer as many questions up front as I could think to.

-Speedy
 
Speedy VonTrapp said:
Everyone will be wearing cans.
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The best thing I can think of to get improve results is to get them to understand that a rig designed for a large auditorium doesn't work in a small basement. If they are all wearing cans, why do they need blaring amps in the same room? Get rid of the bass cab, and put the Marshall in a different room. Now you just have the drums & vocals to worry about, which is fairly easy, just have the singer face the drummer from across the room.

How about:

B1 on the singer
57 on Marshall cab
57 on snare
58 on kick
603s as overheads

Do a stereo drum/bass mix on two tracks, and vocals and guitar on the other two.
 
The bass will definitely be run direct. I thought I mentioned, but I might have missed that.

I wondered about the large sound from the guitar, and if he can get his stack in a different room then we'll definitely do that. I'm just not sure how feasible it is at this point, depending on lengths of cables, etc.

I am afraid of trying the B1 on the vocalist while in a room full of drums and other things, because I'm afraid that it will pick up more of them rather than the singer. I confess that I don't know, but it seems like that is what would happen to me.

Also, something that I forgot to mention is that I will dump the tracks into my computer when I get them home, so I'll be able to give each track a "little" bit of help. So, I'm hoping to avoid the stereo mix of drums and bass, unless that's just by far the better way to go. Is that what you think?

They might even want to add a guitar solo after the fact, which I can do, but they're going for a 'live' sound, and probably are really only concerned with what they can capture for their shows.

I know that it sounds like I asked for help , then argued with the first person who gave it. :( I don't mean to sound that way, and I'm extremely greatful for your reply. I'm just gunshy about a few things, and the LDC in a room full of loud instruments is one of them. But, I haven't tried it yet, so it may very well work, if that's what the majority says here.

Thanks!

-Speedy
 
Speedy VonTrapp said:
The bass will definitely be run direct. I thought I mentioned, but I might have missed that.

I wondered about the large sound from the guitar, and if he can get his stack in a different room then we'll definitely do that. I'm just not sure how feasible it is at this point, depending on lengths of cables, etc.
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You certainly don't want a long run of guitar cable, so keep the head in the room, and run the speaker cable out to the cab. It should be no trouble then.

I am afraid of trying the B1 on the vocalist while in a room full of drums and other things, because I'm afraid that it will pick up more of them rather than the singer. I confess that I don't know, but it seems like that is what would happen to me.
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You will have the same amount of bleed with a condenser mic of the same polar pattern IF the vocalist is the same distance from the mic. That's the rub with condensers: you usually don't eat 'em the way you do a 58. However if the drums are 180 degrees from the mic, the bleed you get shouldn't be a problem. It will mostly be low end, so hi-pass the vocal track.

Having said that, the 58 might be better for this singer than the B1. You gotta try both, swap with the guitar cab if you need to.

Also, something that I forgot to mention is that I will dump the tracks into my computer when I get them home, so I'll be able to give each track a "little" bit of help. So, I'm hoping to avoid the stereo mix of drums and bass, unless that's just by far the better way to go. Is that what you think?
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You just have four tracks, right? So if you want stereo drums, there goes two tracks, and you still have three instruments to record.

Bass is easy enough to nail going in that I'm comfortable combining it with drums. You can stuff it with guitar instead if you like, but I'm guessing you're going to apply some sort of stereo effect to the guitar that you might not want on the bass.

I'm just gunshy about a few things, and the LDC in a room full of loud instruments is one of them.
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Well remember we got your room down to one loud instrument and put it in the null of the mic. And your vocalist has a big advantage in that he's only a few inches away from the mic.
 
It's already turning into a chore. I mentioned to the band that it would be wise to have decent strings on thier instruments, and if the drum heads are crap, they should be replaced. I also mentioned that I want to do some isolation if possible, and offered for the singer to use my vocal effects pedal, since throwing effects on anything after the fact would be difficult, if he wanted to try something. I didn't go dictator on them or anything, they were just suggestions.

"Chill out, we just want a live recording. Just plug some good mics in and let it go."

*shakes head* I can already see the complaints about not wanting to pay me because it sounds like anything from any band in any basement anywhere.
 
Well, my opinion is that any group who plays real loud in a small basement room is made up of morons. That said, it looks like you're just going to have to do the best you can with the limitations THEY impose, making it clear that you know you could do better were you in charge.
 
i personally like recording vocals after the instruments are recorded. If that works for you, then youll have another mic for recording with.
 
Ok, well, it looks like it's going to come down to this now:

I'll be tagging along to one of their gigs, and getting a live sound from them there.

The guys running the sound have no problems with working with me on it, so it should go ok.

As of right now, I'll probably take my 603's and use them as overheads on the drums, use the B1 as a room mic, then take a mono signal of the entire board for the 4th track. I'll mix them to taste afterwards, keeping in mind that there might not be much I can do about it, but it might work out well.

Or take a stereo 2 track out from the main board, and stereo mic the room as well.

It will be a smallish bar set up, as far as I know.

We'll have a little bit to mess with first, so we'll see what works out the best. Hopefully it will come out sounding half way decent. They just want to capture the live sound and feel of the band, so this is probably a good way to do it, so long as we can keep the drunk skank groupies from molesting the mic stands. Which might be harder than I think, considering what one of them was doing to the main speakers at the last show.

eeek.
 
Anybody have any suggestions for things for me to avoid in this situation? Anything that will be a total deal breaker, or something that would be a total deal maker?
 
Speedy VonTrapp said:
Anybody have any suggestions for things for me to avoid in this situation? Anything that will be a total deal breaker, or something that would be a total deal maker?
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It should work OK. It will be very dependent on the venue and the quality of the FOH if you are relying on them for a feed. With four tracks, I think I'd take a stereo board mix plus stereo audience mics rather than the drum overheads + mono board mix. If the FOH guy is cool he should be able to do a good stereo mix for you.

Conceptually then you would be recording the same thing you are hearing: the live sound plus the PA sound. You should be able to get the balance right in the mix.

You might need to delay the board feed to get in phase with your mics, depending on how far you are from the stage.
 
Well, I had a phone conversation with the sound man for the show. (I'm a friend of the band, and I live about an hour away, so an in person meeting might happen, but not right away.)

They don't have super equipment, for sure, just a Behringer 24 channel Eurodesk, I guess, as far as the board goes.

From talking to him, he told me that for some reason, he thinks that the vocals coming out of the board will not be very good at all. He thinks they're too low, and don't sound that great. This apparently is the norm for him, because it's what he said right off the bat. It was his suggestion to overhead the drums, and place a LDC out front, and take a track from the board.

I suggested the stereo on the room, and the stereo from the board, and I think it isn't going to be hard to get him to see things that way. He seemed pretty open to it when I mentioned it to him. I'm happy to see my instincts backed up here, MSH.

My next question will be this then:

For a starting point for mic placement, should I put the stereo mics near the stage, or on the opposite side of the dance floor? I'm assuming it's similiar to most small venues that I've seen. Last time this band played at a local place, the FOH was just the other side of the dance floor, probably 10 feet from the stage, max. Off center against a wall. I don't know what this venue looks like, so I'll try to find out, to have a bit more info going into it.

Aside from finding out that the bar doesn't have a roof, or something else bizzare, I don't think that I should have any huge issues with placement, other than keeping the patrons away from the mic stands.

Thanks for the replies so far. They've been most helpful!

Another quick question I just remembered to ask...should I bother bringing my RNC? I can only run one channel, so I can't tweek the mics seperately, but I can run the effect on both of them at the same time. Is it worth trying? If not, I won't even bring it, because it's just that much more crap for me to deal with.
 
Hi, Just thought I'd throw my two cents in... I did a few 4-track recordings of my band, mostly just for our use(to hear what works,and what doesn't). After a few different venues and playing hit and miss, this worked pretty well....TRACK 1- line out of the mixer for the kick drum(this actually went through a 15 band and I used an aux,. out on the back of it)
TRACK 2- sm57 on guitar cab. direct to tape.
TRACK 3- Vocal mics "bussed" and sent to tape.
TRACK 4- Bass guitar from direct box direct to tape.
The vocal mics picked up enough drums(the drummer sings with a head set).
You could use the compressor on the kick and the vocal tracks.
And of course tweak everything afterward. ( I tracked the vocal mics and guitar cab dry, and added reverb after)
I got some pretty nice stuff this way, without too much fuss.
 
Speedy VonTrapp said:
From talking to him, he told me that for some reason, he thinks that the vocals coming out of the board will not be very good at all. He thinks they're too low, and don't sound that great. This apparently is the norm for him, because it's what he said right off the bat. It was his suggestion to overhead the drums, and place a LDC out front, and take a track from the board.
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If the vocals are weak going into a dynamic mic an inch from the singer's mouth, I don't see how they get better with a LDC a few feet away. I think you have to live with whatever vocals you get, although I don't understand this.

For a starting point for mic placement, should I put the stereo mics near the stage, or on the opposite side of the dance floor?
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Ideally not too far from the stage, but really wherever you can put them securely.

gold's idea about a 4 track board feed is worth thinking about too. I used to do that, although I like to arrange the 4 tracks the same way I mentioned under the studio scenario. It sounds a lot less live though, so you have to add the hall sound in processing, which isn't the worst thing ever.
 
I'm pretty sure the LDC would be more for just picking up the entire stage from the FOH point of view. But, I think that I'm just going to skip that idea altogether.

They're really wanting to be able to hear people screaming, cheering, etc, so close micing the instruments is not something that they care about at all.

I think that what I'll end up doing is taking a stereo feed from the board, and stereo micing the stage.

Either that, or another possibility is that I'll take a mono mix from the board for everything, stereo the room with the 603's, and then maybe even point my B1 toward away from the stage, and pick up the bar.

I'd fade the B1 out during the songs, and probably just bring is up for the crowd reactions after each song. (During mixing stage. I'd just keep it all level during tracking. Never know what you might grab.)

Does the B1 pointed at the crowd idea with mono board and stereo room sound like something a moron would do?

I'm going to try and get the specs for the venue, and post a drawing here for people to see, and critique my placement ideas.
 
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