MXL 960 Tube Swap Options

Twinhit

You gotta speak up!
Hi
I have an MXL 960 and while I think it sounds really good for the price, I was wondering
if an old 50s vintage RCA 12AX7 (black plates, I think) would work with this mic and what I should expect.
Also... I have other vintage 12AU7 and possibly a 12AT7 tubes from various vintage manufacturers. These are all in an early 50s Hammond Chord Organ.

I am looking for info concerning gain per model ie 100% 12AX7, 40% 12AT7 or something like that. I forget where I saw it, but thought it might be of use to me.

I've been told a 12AU, 12AT, 12AX, are all interchangeable, but I figured someone here might know better.

I know that some on this board have been swearing by the Mullard 4024s and possibly a couple of others. I just thought I'd ask concerning the RCA aforementioned and whether the above models can be used in this mic.
MXL says it's a 12AT7 but there apparently is some discrepency that leads one to investigate further.
Sure would appreciate what you can share.
 
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Give this gentleman Christian Whitmore a holler proaudiotubes@aol.com he will be able to tell you in a flash what is and isn't compatible. He may even have something that you can use if the tubes you have aren't right.
 
12AX7 (gain of 100)
12AT7 (gain of 60)
12AY7 (gain of 45)
12AU7 (gain of 19)

So what does this mean? – If your device calls for a 12ay7 and you replace it with a 12at7 you will get more distortion or your device will be louder, the reverse is true if you replace a 12ax7 (gain of 100) with a 12ay7 (gain of 45) your device will be about 55% quieter.
 
Give this gentleman Christian Whitmore a holler proaudiotubes@aol.com he will be able to tell you in a flash what is and isn't compatible. He may even have something that you can use if the tubes you have aren't right.

Thank you moresound for your referral. I think I've seen Christian Whitmore's email addy name come up before somewhere but in searching for further info about the individual's business, I haven't found a website beyond forums. I take it that he is something of a vacuum tube guru.
 
12AX7 (gain of 100)
12AT7 (gain of 60)
12AY7 (gain of 45)
12AU7 (gain of 19)

So what does this mean? – If your device calls for a 12ay7 and you replace it with a 12at7 you will get more distortion or your device will be louder, the reverse is true if you replace a 12ax7 (gain of 100) with a 12ay7 (gain of 45) your device will be about 55% quieter.

Thank you very much for your response, Mr. Gerst. Very clearly written. I must take this opportunity
to express my appreciation of your contributions to the several forums in the past.
They have all been very informative and extremely interesting to read.

I am still learning all this with a lifelong severe hearing disability. One of the things I have picked up on in
my reading is that some people want a quiet tube while others are looking for a "great sounding tube".

1) It is easy to say "this tube is extremely quiet" because a) you can hear the quietness and/or b) observe
a track of the mic without any sound being introduced as in the mic all by itself in a very quiet or sound-proofed
room, for example. Such a real-world situation I am describing would fall under scientifically analyzed through use of
audio test equipment and/or .

2) The other more difficult descriptive terms for me to understand would be to call a tube "warm", "chimey", "bright", "fat", etc.
These descriptions are what I would call at the present time, vague.

3) When I read or hear someone say this is a "great sounding mic" (or musical instrument, amplifier etc.) I am kinda
hung up on it being a subjective opinion.

So.... with those things in mind, is the rule of thumb along the lines of "When looking for a tube with regard to final sound,
regardless of make, type, application, first and foremost, you are looking for a very quiet tube and secondly sound dynamics
that contribute to the color or characteristic of the sound"?

This is the shady area of my understanding why audiophiles, musicians and sound engineers go through what they do
in their search for the perfect tube. I guess I learned to hear with my eyes instead of seeing with my ears by necessity
and never really learned to interpret the odd mixed-up language of the two.

Please pardon the mess.
PS, I plan on putting your comment into a tube section of a recording studio referance .pdf file I am building maintaining. I hope you don't mind as it's easier to find than searching the net with a squillion returns.
 
is the rule of thumb along the lines of "When looking for a tube with regard to final sound,
regardless of make, type, application, first and foremost, you are looking for a very quiet tube and secondly sound dynamics
that contribute to the color or characteristic of the sound"?
Twinhit, IME, under the focus of this kind of subject, people fall into one of three categoies:

- Those who desire a specific type of sound; i.e. someone who knows from experience and creative imagination the character of sound they want and knows from experience that a tube switch is a means towards that sound. Whether the sound is "clean" or "pudgy" or "slovenly" or "transparent" or whatever subjective adjective they with to label it with can vary from person to person.

- Those who are gear sluts and mainly want to swap tubes because that's what gear sluts are expected to do. They just aren't happy unless or until they get that vintage doo dad with an odd-numbered serial number built on a Wednesday and stock it with tubes hand-made made by a little old lady from Purple Creek, Montana. Not because that's necessarily "the sound" that they're missing, but rather mostly for the bragging rights amongst their fellow gear sluts.

- Those with an insufficient amount of experience who are at that stage in their hobby or vocation where they just aren't getting the quality of recordings they think they should be able to get, and "have heard" that putting custom tubes into their gear is what the big shots do, and therefore must be that golden key that's keeping them from getting the sound that the big shots get, when really the issue is their ear more than their gear.

I've not used the MXL 960, but do have experience with the MXL V69 ME, which is also tube-driven, and in which have had experience doing the tube swap, as well as with preamps and compressors with 12A?7 swaps, and I feel pretty confident in saying, that while upgrading the tube can make a subtle and positive difference in the sound of each of those pieces of gear, if one couldn't make a great recording with them before the swap, they couldn't make one with them after the swap either.

IMHO, YMMV, 12AX7, 6AK5, etc.
G.
 
Thank you moresound for your referral. I think I've seen Christian Whitmore's email addy name come up before somewhere but in searching for further info about the individual's business, I haven't found a website beyond forums. I take it that he is something of a vacuum tube guru.

He is very knowledgeable and will take the time to explain to you all aspects of your concerns.
 
and I feel pretty confident in saying, that while upgrading the tube can make a subtle and positive difference in the sound of each of those pieces of gear, if one couldn't make a great recording with them before the swap, they couldn't make one with them after the swap either.
G.

TwinDude :D

This is true.
Swapping out tubes are subtle. You're not gonna hear a glaring difference so I hope you're not looking to hear one.
:drunk:
 
Twinhit, IME, under the focus of this kind of subject, people fall into one of three categoies:

- Those who desire a specific type of sound; i.e. someone who knows from experience and creative imagination the character of sound they want and knows from experience that a tube switch is a means towards that sound. Whether the sound is "clean" or "pudgy" or "slovenly" or "transparent" or whatever subjective adjective they with to label it with can vary from person to person.

- Those who are gear sluts and mainly want to swap tubes because that's what gear sluts are expected to do. They just aren't happy unless or until they get that vintage doo dad with an odd-numbered serial number built on a Wednesday and stock it with tubes hand-made made by a little old lady from Purple Creek, Montana. Not because that's necessarily "the sound" that they're missing, but rather mostly for the bragging rights amongst their fellow gear sluts.

- Those with an insufficient amount of experience who are at that stage in their hobby or vocation where they just aren't getting the quality of recordings they think they should be able to get, and "have heard" that putting custom tubes into their gear is what the big shots do, and therefore must be that golden key that's keeping them from getting the sound that the big shots get, when really the issue is their ear more than their gear.

I've not used the MXL 960, but do have experience with the MXL V69 ME, which is also tube-driven, and in which have had experience doing the tube swap, as well as with preamps and compressors with 12A?7 swaps, and I feel pretty confident in saying, that while upgrading the tube can make a subtle and positive difference in the sound of each of those pieces of gear, if one couldn't make a great recording with them before the swap, they couldn't make one with them after the swap either.

IMHO, YMMV, 12AX7, 6AK5, etc.
G.

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond.
My understanding of the tubes has long been that you wanted a quiet tube, but that is coming from the home radio set experience. Next we come to the electric guitar amp where we hear of "those guys" are using x tubes to get their tone. after hearing (and reading) a variety of opinions, I then realized that it probably wasn't x tube or x component in the amplifier's circuit board that made "the sound" but a combination of the entire package combined plus playing style and technique.
Also, because the tube electric guitar amp is basically a radio with the reciever section removed, I am still in the
"just find a quiet and clean sound tube" camp or frame of mind. Admittedly, an amature approach by comparison
with those in the industry. I can also see that the types of tube equipment being used in the recording end of the experience will have their own circuitry that can differ greatly enough from other tube equip. in the audio chain can only guess that what tube works in a home stereo, that same exact tube may not be the pro's tube of choice in a mic pre, compressor or whatever.
With that in mind, I am taking your three catagories in consideration and understand your summary conclusion as suggesting that when tube swaps are made, it usually is subtle and akin to putting x parts to 1 when mixing paint or culinary recipe. It's not going to be a dark meat v. white meat difference but rather a seasoning on one of the meats.
Is that the correct understanding?
I wholeheartedly agree with your notion that if "one couldn't make a great recording with them before the swap, they couldn't make one with them after the swap either." Makes perfect sense to me.

I'm not sure but I suppose I am asking a question that can only be answered with personal experience with experimenting with different tubes applied to different situations. In the end, it's what sounds best for x situation.
I guess what I was trying to grasp was what, if any, predictable outcome could one expect using X brand tube, type and model tube v. another.

Anyway, thank you for your well written response.
 
TwinDude :D

This is true.
Swapping out tubes are subtle. You're not gonna hear a glaring difference so I hope you're not looking to hear one.
:drunk:

I wasn't really sure what to expect from a tube swap. I DID commit to swapping out the MXL OEM tube with the aforementioned RCA. They both sound pretty quiet. Gainwise, the RCA is smidgeon less than the OEM. The best description I can come up with is that the RCA track I made sounded as it were in a small room with real good acoustics treatment while the MXL sounded as though it were in a slightly larger more airy room. I guess the subtle differences in this comparison are extremely slight. To my ears anyway. I am hoping to post clips some day.
 
. I guess the subtle differences in this comparison are extremely slight. To my ears anyway. .

sounds about right.
You'll get similar examples from preamps and other gear too. Sometimes the upgrade you do is gonna be slight, sometimes not.
But even on the slight upgrades, keep in mind that that subtle upgrade will be on every track you use it on.

Like if I used the same low quality preamp with a lot of self noize on 16 tracks....
Then used a better quality preamp, less self noize, on another 16 tracks...the subtle upgrade would be more (or less) audible because of the accumulation of subtle. :D
Ya get me?

I don't think I've ever put "the accumulation of subtle" in a sentence before.
:laughings:
 
sounds about right.
You'll get similar examples from preamps and other gear too. Sometimes the upgrade you do is gonna be slight, sometimes not.
But even on the slight upgrades, keep in mind that that subtle upgrade will be on every track you use it on.

Like if I used the same low quality preamp with a lot of self noize on 16 tracks....
Then used a better quality preamp, less self noize, on another 16 tracks...the subtle upgrade would be more (or less) audible because of the accumulation of subtle. :D
Ya get me?

I don't think I've ever put "the accumulation of subtle" in a sentence before.
:laughings:

I getcha.
Isn't your "accumulation of subtle" kind of like a mathematical 0+0=0?
 
It's not going to be a dark meat v. white meat difference but rather a seasoning on one of the meats.
Is that the correct understanding?
Regulars here can tell you I love a good food analogy, as I'm using them all the time; producing music is so much like cooking food that it's almost scary sometimes.

That said, one thing I have also discovered is that different analogies can mean different things to different people; that what I sometimes consider to be a perfect analogy, the next guy may perceive differently. With that caveat in mind, I'd suggest the analogy for me is the difference between what feed the chicken was raised upon before it was turned into your dinner, that chicken raised on corn may have a subtle difference in intrinsic flavor than one raised on sunflower seeds. Or like the difference between corn-fed beef or dairy and grass-fed beef or dairy.

If you're making tacos, the difference will probably be wasted. If you're making a four-star dinner, the difference may be appreciated, but even then a lot depends upon the quality of the pallet of the person eating it.

As far as the quiet and clean angle goes, again it really all depends upon the desires of the person making the decision. But usually, I think, it really winds up being the opposite; most folks say they want this tube or that tube (or any tube at all) because of the "color" that it can impart to a sound. Just as the food that the cow or the chicken eats can impart a bit of a distinctive flavor to their muscles or milk. Usually this means the certain character of harmonic distortion that some tubes can ostensibly add to the signal.

Sure, one wants tubes that do not impart any more self-noise in the way of hiss and crackle and such than need be, but usually that is not the reason why people want to swap out for custom tube makes in their gear. Sure, people will need to replace tubes that get too noisy or start artifacting in some out-of-spec way (we had to do just that with our V69 just a few months ago), but that's usually more along the lines of repair than it is of customization. Though it's not unheard of fpr someone wanting to move to custom tubes for being cleaner and quieter, that seems to be more of the exception that the rule for the reasons generally given for tube swaps in forums like this one.

G.
 
They just aren't happy unless or until they get that vintage doo dad with an odd-numbered serial number built on a Wednesday and stock it with tubes hand-made made by a little old lady from Purple Creek, Montana.

Actually...the Thursday batches are noticably "warmer" sounding, and considerd by most as THE ones to get.
It has something to do with Tuesday night happy hour in Purple Creek, Montana...and everyone being somewhat hung over on Wednesdays...so QC wasn't really paying as much attention. :)

:laughings:



Hey Twinhit...a few thoughts about swapping tubes…in mics….

Yeah, you can try out some NOS tubes...etc...but keep in mind that it's a bit more delicate than swapping tubes in an amp. The sockets in tube mics are often lightly held in place, and there are very thin, small wires connecting everything. It's easy to !#$& something up. :eek:
Also...mics are often designed with a specific tube in mind. Yeah...you can probably use various tubes in the same family, but you might find that anything but the recommended tube will not really be a pleasant character change as it might be in a guitar amp.
Finally...most decent tube manufactures at least make a point of picking better tubes (the real good manufactures take a lot of care in tube selection)...so even though you might have that NOS tube made on Thursday in Purple Creek, Montana... ;) ...it actually may not be any improvement over the new production stock tube that came with the mic which was selected for the mic.

I'm not saying DON'T try out other tubes...but to make it a worthwhile effort, you at least want to know you have some "upscale" tubes to try out.
Heck...I have a few cases of tubes for my amps, rack gear and for some of my tube mics....and sometimes I can go through a dozen tubes (same brand/vintage) to find 1-2 that are really good. The others or either microphonic… :( … or just so-so, and might work OK as spares, but certainly not as any improvement.

Besides all that...I don't want to slam your mic choice...but there's more to it than just the tube, and the MXL 690 isn't really a high-end tube mic, so if you are looking for some silky smooth, high-end sounding tube mic tones...it's going to take a bit more than a tube swap in a MXL 690, so don’t be too disappointed if other tubes make little difference.
 
Regulars here can tell you I love a good food analogy, as I'm using them all the time; producing music is so much like cooking food that it's almost scary sometimes.

That said, one thing I have also discovered is that different analogies can mean different things to different people; that what I sometimes consider to be a perfect analogy, the next guy may perceive differently. With that caveat in mind, I'd suggest the analogy for me is the difference between what feed the chicken was raised upon before it was turned into your dinner, that chicken raised on corn may have a subtle difference in intrinsic flavor than one raised on sunflower seeds. Or like the difference between corn-fed beef or dairy and grass-fed beef or dairy.

If you're making tacos, the difference will probably be wasted. If you're making a four-star dinner, the difference may be appreciated, but even then a lot depends upon the quality of the pallet of the person eating it.

As far as the quiet and clean angle goes, again it really all depends upon the desires of the person making the decision. But usually, I think, it really winds up being the opposite; most folks say they want this tube or that tube (or any tube at all) because of the "color" that it can impart to a sound. Just as the food that the cow or the chicken eats can impart a bit of a distinctive flavor to their muscles or milk. Usually this means the certain character of harmonic distortion that some tubes can ostensibly add to the signal.

Sure, one wants tubes that do not impart any more self-noise in the way of hiss and crackle and such than need be, but usually that is not the reason why people want to swap out for custom tube makes in their gear. Sure, people will need to replace tubes that get too noisy or start artifacting in some out-of-spec way (we had to do just that with our V69 just a few months ago), but that's usually more along the lines of repair than it is of customization. Though it's not unheard of fpr someone wanting to move to custom tubes for being cleaner and quieter, that seems to be more of the exception that the rule for the reasons generally given for tube swaps in forums like this one.

G.

As far as the quiet and clean angle goes, again it really all depends upon the desires of the person making the decision. But usually, I think, it really winds up being the opposite; most folks say they want this tube or that tube (or any tube at all) because of the "color" that it can impart to a sound. Just as the food that the cow or the chicken eats can impart a bit of a distinctive flavor to their muscles or milk. Usually this means the certain character of harmonic distortion that some tubes can ostensibly add to the signal.

Usually this means the certain character of harmonic distortion that some tubes can ostensibly add to the signal.

Ok this sounds closer to either what I was inquiring about some time in the past which has been:

Q: Why do people intentionally swap what otherwise sounds like perfectly good vacuum tubes? (Remember I am thinking clean and quiet)

A: because of the "color" that it can impart to a sound.

Is that answer what it really boils down to?


btw, When I read the line about the taco v. 4 star dinner, it all started to make sense.
Another way I would analogize it: You can't make a work horse a race horse and vice versa.
Actually, that's a proverb that's better applied to modification.
Your statement is addressing something different....
More like the difference between a Volkswagon beetle and a Cadillac.
Now, Phil Good has been working on a Mic mod for the 960. In his case, he essentially guts the mic of the essential components from the capsule to the leads that go to the cable jack and all that's left is the shell. His mod is akin to strippin' a '32 Ford 3 window coupe of it's stock drivetrain and droppin' in something like a small or big block Chevy or Hemi and some X spec drivetrain to the rear axle. His mod results in what I would classify as a genuine hot-rod mic. On the other hand, If Phil were an mic company engineer, the project might be a special Corporate car.
Anyway you get the idea.

In art, your analogy might be to mix a drop of brown paint to a pure white base. That white no longer pure white. The artist knows it's there but the painting's afficianadoes might not.
So.... As I am trying to understand this, the "color" is akin to the painting's ground, whatever the ground's tint, it will influence the rest of the painting's colors (depending on the transparancy of the successive layers applied).

IF I have that right, what are the "colors" used to describe the various tubes?

I think I mentioned that I have already mounted the RCA into my 960, Gain appears to be slightly less, but the room
sounds smaller and quieter in the sense that, I think, a captured sound's "decay" is quicker. ie a padded cell v. bathroom. Otherwise, it's pretty quiet.
As far as harmonic distortion goes, I am not yet familiar with the sound that description applies to. I may have heard it many times, but wouldn't recognize if you asked me to.

Sure would be interesting if someone or a small coterie, took a tube mic and sampled various tubes not changing anything else with flat/neutral eq and no compression, so we could better understand the terms. Simple sounds, a few vocally spoken words, acoustic guitar. Repeating the same riff and spoken sentence or sung verse.
It'd be website in of itself if the same mic were used by say, a bass, bartone, tenor, alto, contralto, soprano etc voices. Likewise a Dreadnought, a Small body, and Classical guitar, A lot of files. Perhaps there are easier ways and of course the audience must realise the differences between studio monitors, headphones and home/portable/personal audio equipment so as not to prejudge without those variances in mind.

That's about all I can think of for now.
 
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