Must spend money rather than become talented

pdadda

pdadda

Captain Sea Boots
Forgive me for posting this without looking around to see if people have already given their opinions. Here is my current set-up:
mics:Behringer B1, Audix OM2, Sennheiser e609
pres: SP VTB-1, two on my MOTU 828mkii
Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.2A monitors

I have been critiquing my music lately, and I think my weakest link is my mic collection. I can't get my acoustic to sound very nice in recordings(even though I love its tone live). Also, my vocal tracks sound a bit bright and tinny. I have been recording both vocals and acoustic with the Behringer.
I think I am in need of a better mic as my next purchase. Any suggestions of 1 mic that would be a good upgrade. I like my vocal tracks more than my acoustic tracks, so I was thinking of a SDC. I guess my budget right now would be around $500, give or take $100 if need be.
 
Generally 'bright and tinny' is associated with 'microphone quality'.....however, I agree with Harvey, technique more than makes up for budget.
 
I have spent a lot of time messing with positioning, but I certainly could do more. I have only been messing with using the Behringer B-1 by itself (because I am an idiot and managed to leave all but one of my mic stands at a gig). I have tried over the shoulder, up above in front/angled down, at 12th fret, at the sounds hole, at 10th fret angled towards 12 fret or sound hole, and all sorts of distances from mic to guitar. Granted, my room sucks manatee nuts. I will go at it again tonight.
 
pdadda said:
I have spent a lot of time messing with positioning, but I certainly could do more. I have only been messing with using the Behringer B-1 by itself (because I am an idiot and managed to leave all but one of my mic stands at a gig). I have tried over the shoulder, up above in front/angled down, at 12th fret, at the sounds hole, at 10th fret angled towards 12 fret or sound hole, and all sorts of distances from mic to guitar. Granted, my room sucks manatee nuts. I will go at it again tonight.
Click to expand...
Okay, let's work on just the acoustic guitar mic positioning, using only the B1 by itself. A good set of headphones would help at this point, but we can do without them. Let's try some experiments with the mic position:

Over The Shoulder
The body of the mic should be roughly parallel to the floor, with the diaphragm's view just "grazing" the top of the guitar, kinda looking at the bridge, with the bulk of the view being the floor. Set all tone controls flat, set the VTB-1 to no tube drive, the impedance switch to high, and record about 30 seconds of something easy to play again the same way. Listen to the playback. Is it too bright?

Try just rotating the body of the mic about 15 degrees, so that the diaphragm is now aiming at the end pin of the guitar, record again. How did it change? Did it get brighter or more mellow? If brighter, try rotating the body the other way 15 degrees and try again. Still too much top end? Try angling the mic up about 15 degees (to where it sees less of the body) and repeat all 3 positions.

Not enough difference? Lower the mic 6 inches and repeat all 6 tests. Raise the mic 6 inches and repeat all 6 tests. Move the mic further back 6 inches and repeat all 6 tests. Move the mic forward 6 inches and repeat all 6 tests.

Try playing with the impedance switch (on the back of the VTB-1) during all these tests.

Aimed at 10th or 12 fret, or soundhole
Try different distances in 3 inch increments, with the mic body parallel to the front of the guitar, and the diaphragm looking directly at the guitar. Try everything from 6 inches away to about 3 feet away. (If you have an assistant, they can also try rotating the diaphagm, up to 30 degrees in both directions, at the different distances.)

Other methods
Put the mic about 16 inches out from your forehead, and then tilt it till it's aimed at the guitar. Try miking the side or back of the guitar. Try putting a sock over the B1 to cut some of the brightness - different materials will have different tonal effects. Try the OM2 in very close and blend it in with the B1. Read the "big mic thread" and go to the page where I posted links to guitar radiation patterns, and avoid miking the high frequency areas shown.

When you do this for a living, there's no "right", or "wrong"; there's only what "works", and what "doesn't". Keep trying different things till you find what "works".
 
Sorry to butt in but I too have trouble with acoustic guitar recording.

Harvey - in every instance where you say "with the body of the mic parallel to the..." I get confused. I think you mean "at 90 degrees to", or else I'm confused in a major way.

For instance:

...with the mic body parallel to the front of the guitar, and the diaphragm looking directly at the guitar....

This makes no sense to me. Am I visualizing it wrong?
 
Phyl said:
Sorry to butt in but I too have trouble with acoustic guitar recording.

Harvey - in every instance where you say "with the body of the mic parallel to the..." I get confused. I think you mean "at 90 degrees to", or else I'm confused in a major way.

For instance:

...with the mic body parallel to the front of the guitar, and the diaphragm looking directly at the guitar....

This makes no sense to me. Am I visualizing it wrong?
Click to expand...
Maybe I'm not being clear enough. The Behringer B1 is a "side address" microphone, so the business end is at right angles to the body. Think of the mic body as the body of a whale. The diaphragm's directivity would be kinda like the spout, coming out at 90°, relative to the body of the mic.

Most stage mics for example, are "end adress" microhones where the element faces directly away (180°) from the XLR plug, like a Shure 57 or 58. or a 421.

Is that a little clearer?
 
I haven’t found the holy-grail position for acoustic guitar either. All that “over the shoulder” stuff doesn’t work for me. It might be the bees knees for finger picking or pop/rock styles, but it brings out way too much pick attack for flatpicking.
 
Flatpicker said:
I haven?t found the holy-grail position for acoustic guitar either. All that ?over the shoulder? stuff doesn?t work for me. It might be the bees knees for finger picking or pop/rock styles, but it brings out way too much pick attack for flatpicking.
Click to expand...
For flatpicking, I usually get the mic in low, from behind the bridge, aimed at the lower bottom bout.
 
Thanks a ton for your input Harvey. I messed around for several hours again tonight and got something I liked much better. Here's what worked for me:
I put the mic just just over my right shoulder (I am right handed) with most of the diaphragm in front of the guitar. I angled the mic around 20-30 degrees, as suggested, towards the end pin. The first track I recorded was capo'd.
I then recorded another track without the capo (in the same key obviously). I panned track one hard right and track two hard left.
I thought it sounded pretty darn good. After comparing between my pre's, I found that the MOTU didn't provide the gain I wanted, while the VTB-1 did. I also just like the slight character the VTB-1 added.
Well, I guess I am not ready for another mic for a while. I need to master using what I have first. Thanks again.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Maybe I'm not being clear enough. The Behringer B1 is a "side address" microphone, so the business end is at right angles to the body. Think of the mic body as the body of a whale. The diaphragm's directivity would be kinda like the spout, coming out at 90°, relative to the body of the mic.

Most stage mics for example, are "end adress" microhones where the element faces directly away (180°) from the XLR plug, like a Shure 57 or 58. or a 421.

Is that a little clearer?
Click to expand...

Got it - thanks Harvey.
 
sdelsolray said:
This is an example of what makes this forum work.
Click to expand...


Exactly! Thanks again Harvey for awesome info and taking the time to explain it. This forum can be an amazing resource when it doesn't turn into an argument. Three cheers for HR.com!
 
<<I haven’t found the holy-grail position for acoustic guitar either. All that “over the shoulder” stuff doesn’t work for me. >>

Flatpicker, try this:

put one SDC about 6 inches out, aimed around the 12th fret. Put a second SDC over your picking shoulder, right about next to your ear, pointing at the floor (or aimed slightly back towards the lower bout of the guitar). I use my pair of 603's for this.

then take an LDC (or MDC) and put it about 3-6ft back and aim it right around where the neck joins the body--around 14th fret. i use my dragonfly or SP B1 for this.

take a 4th mic, if you wish, and stick it on the other side of the room. this is usually the V67 or SP B1 in my case.


balance to taste. i usually pan the 603's hard left and right, with the dragonfly and V67/B1 right in the middle. YMMV.

granted 4 mics for an acoustic guitar might be a little overkill, but if the acoustic is the predominant instrument, then it's worth it. i've found this to be a good combination of pick attack/whomp and "mellow". the thing you have to be most careful about is that mic next to your ear picking up click tracks and/or breathing. :D


cheers,
wade
 
mrface2112 said:
<<I
the thing you have to be most careful about is that mic next to your ear picking up click tracks and/or breathing.
Click to expand...

Agreed - one major problem I have with the OTS position is click track noise. Especially if you're trying to do a quiet passage with lots of silence between the notes.

Another problem I have is that when I fingerpick the sound of my fingers leaving the strings is accentuated; it's that ...thhhhp... sound at the end of each note. Maybe some judicious eq is needed.

Finally, the basement I record in has a terrible room sound. If I don't close mic the room sound tends to make the guitar sound very 'honky' - for lack of a better term.

I've often wondered if I should calculate the room modes and try a gentle cut at the problem freqs.
 
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Phyl said:
Finally, the basement I record in has a terrible room sound. If I don't close mic the room sound tends to make the guitar sound very 'honky' - for lack of a better term.

I've often wondered if I should calculate the room modes and try a gentle cut at the problem freqs.
Click to expand...
Get a couple of moving blankets, put them up on both walls (in the corner of the room), put your mics in the "V" of the corner (facing out), and record facing into the corner.

You can also try playing while facing out of the corner, with the mic positioned at the open end of the "V" (mic pointing into the corner).

Either method should reduce the room's contribution to the recording.
 
<<one major problem I have with the OTS position is click track noise. Especially if you're trying to do a quiet passage with lots of silence between the notes>>

i've found that to be a problem too......but i guess i've found that the most straight-forward answer is the simplest.....just turn down the click. or set it for a lower pitch rather than the ear-splitting "plink". or use a gate and gate out the click if you can. but i always find turning it down to help the best..... :D

of course, that's assuming you're using good, closed, isolating cans in the first place. i still have the problem on occasion with my HD280s.

harvey's ideas about the packing blankets works quite well. another variation on that theme is to get some portable hanging clothes racks and drape the packing blankets over them (hang with clothespins, etc). heavy-duty winter curtains work too. i've seen this done to great success around/over drums to create a drum tent of sorts. the bonus of using hanging clothes racks are that they're portable *and* you can hang clothes from them when you're not recording. :b

oh, and as for the plucking finger squeaks off the strings, that's best compensated for in your playing technique (don't make the sound in the first place) or in mic positioning--a fraction of an inch can either greatly emphasize or deemphasize that annoying sound. i too have had that problem when recording my fingerstyle guitar, and "fixed it" with some technique tweaks and mic positioning.

lemme tell ya.....nothing puts ones technique under a microscope like sticking a mic in front of ya.....


cheers,
wade
 
Hey Harvey, why do you point the diaphragm to the floor? And would you do the same with a dynamic like an SM57?
 
pdadda said:
Forgive me for posting this without looking around to see if people have already given their opinions. Here is my current set-up:
mics:Behringer B1, Audix OM2, Sennheiser e609
pres: SP VTB-1, two on my MOTU 828mkii
Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.2A monitors

I have been critiquing my music lately, and I think my weakest link is my mic collection. I can't get my acoustic to sound very nice in recordings(even though I love its tone live). Also, my vocal tracks sound a bit bright and tinny. I have been recording both vocals and acoustic with the Behringer.
I think I am in need of a better mic as my next purchase. Any suggestions of 1 mic that would be a good upgrade. I like my vocal tracks more than my acoustic tracks, so I was thinking of a SDC. I guess my budget right now would be around $500, give or take $100 if need be.
Click to expand...

I would say that you certainly need to spend money rather than even *try* to develop your talent. The very idea of buying new equipment is the direction that will make you the most satisfied with your recordings. Since the possibility of you recording even a half-decent song (let alone write one) is extremely close to zero, I would suggest that you develop your talent at spending money. This is an easily developed talent that can give you instant gratification. You *can* be a success. It *only* takes more money to impress your family and friends.

Just do it and have fun!
 
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