Music too loud or too quiet

[balky]

Hi!

I just would like to ask a question that bothers me long time. I was recording a friend last night Moon River - the instrumental was either soft or intense that would make the vocal either jump at you or drown... I was struggling, then I decided to put c6 sidechain compressor on music and let the voice activate it on very loud spots to make it quieter. I think it worked somewhat, but my question is if this kind of a technique common and is used by others???
How would you deal with such cases?

Here is what came out

Look forward to your replies. and thank you in advance!!!

PS and whatever critique you may have, I would like to hear it please. I am always learning
Just in case, this is already finished instrumental, so I was just mixing voce+music.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

Gave it a listen balky. A good singer.
I can't answer your question, through ignorance.
Did you record the whole orchestra, or just apply the voice to someone else's orchestra recording? Forget that, just read your last comment.
I thought the orchestra was not as well recorded as the singer.
Recording all of it would be quite a tricky project.

 

[balky]

Gave it a listen balky. A good singer.
I can't answer your question, through ignorance.
Did you record the whole orchestra, or just apply the voice to someone else's orchestra recording? Forget that, just read your last comment.
I thought the orchestra was not as well recorded as the singer.
Recording all of it would be quite a tricky project.

Most of the time the only way to achieve this is to find music rather than create one from scratch - not many have skills for that I don’t. And sometimes performance want to record the song so much that they settle for whatever instrumental that they can find
Thanks for your input and compliments, Raymond

 

[rob aylestone]

That's a really good recording, but you didn't need to compress it - especially with the strings. Mancini was really clever at arrangements - and the strings always sit below the voice. I thinks it explores the range from pp, to maybe f? The intro is very loud, and probably too much so. It's quite normal for the voice to be the constant factor end to end, but leave it exposed - there's no need for the compression at all. The orchestra is just way too loud for the way they're playing. If you have strings playing pp to maybe mf, then the tone tells you that's what it is. Turning them up is not right. I'd back those strings right off and make the thing more smooth and quiet. Easy Listening music is rarely loud like this. It's a very good recording, but the orchestra is backing, not featured in this style - which is very 1960s. Henry Mancini and Burt Bacarach loved stuff like this - and the key feature was air, space and room to breathe.

 

[balky]

That's a really good recording, but you didn't need to compress it - especially with the strings. Mancini was really clever at arrangements - and the strings always sit below the voice. I thinks it explores the range from pp, to maybe f? The intro is very loud, and probably too much so. It's quite normal for the voice to be the constant factor end to end, but leave it exposed - there's no need for the compression at all. The orchestra is just way too loud for the way they're playing. If you have strings playing pp to maybe mf, then the tone tells you that's what it is. Turning them up is not right. I'd back those strings right off and make the thing more smooth and quiet. Easy Listening music is rarely loud like this. It's a very good recording, but the orchestra is backing, not featured in this style - which is very 1960s. Henry Mancini and Burt Bacarach loved stuff like this - and the key feature was air, space and room to breathe.

Hey, Rob!
Thanks for your input.
I did not want to compress anything, really.
But making the vocal as low as I did (so it sounded good right after the loudest intro with very soft portion of the song) would totally cover it farther along the road when music gets louder. So i placed a sidechain compressor that would bring down the instrumental on those very loud spots.

Sorry for elaborating, but I thought you may have missed something when you were reading my original post (or not...) I think i should clarify myself in my post.

 

[HumanPlanet]

So i placed a sidechain compressor that would bring down the instrumental on those very loud spots.

I agree with Rob that using a compressor to adjust dynamics on a classical recording where the players have studied for years to get their dynamics perfected is a really bad idea.

You could try dynamic inverse EQ matching (gently at max -1db, tight Q) sidechained to the vocal to get the vocal to cut through and dump the compressor.

 

[balky]

I agree with Rob that using a compressor to adjust dynamics on a classical recording where the players have studied for years to get their dynamics perfected is a really bad idea.

You could try dynamic inverse EQ matching (gently at max -1db, tight Q) sidechained to the vocal to get the vocal to cut through and dump the compressor.

Thanks
I will read on dynamic inverse EQ, I think FAB-Q-3 can do that trick. I never tried that. In commercials I do this c6-sidechain often to make the background softer when the voice sounds. But isn't dynamic inverse EQ similar to a side chain compressor aimed for certain frequencies? Normally, I do just a little dent in music EQ for vocal to sit in it. But that way, it affects the entire piece.

... And I did not mean to underestimate the musicians that played in that piece I just wanted to achieve what was needed. I used the method that I knew... I am sure, there are many different ways to do that. That is why I made this post, so I can learn ))

So, the way it is now, does it sound weird in any way, do you hear anything strange? I would like your objective opinion on that. Set aside c6 processing...

Thanks

 

[HumanPlanet]

I think FAB-Q-3 can do that trick.

It can.

But isn't dynamic inverse EQ similar to a side chain compressor aimed for certain frequencies?

Not really. The way they work and what they do is different. In basic terms, compressors make loud things quieter and quiet things louder relatively and EQ adjusts the amount of a frequency that is present (over to you Rob for a proper explanation!).

So, the way it is now, does it sound weird in any way, do you hear anything strange? I would like your objective opinion on that. Set aside c6 processing...

I'll get back to you when I can listen again.

 

[balky]

It can.



Not really. The way they work and what they do is different. In basic terms, compressors make loud things quieter and quiet things louder relatively and EQ adjusts the amount of a frequency that is present (over to you Rob for a proper explanation!).



I'll get back to you when I can listen again.

Thank you

 

[rob aylestone]

I'm certainly not the compressor expert - in fact, for me, it only ever to keep things under control, where probably playing it again could have fixed it.

Clearly you are great at recording - but I'm guessing that you weren't around when this kind of stuff was popular. Lots of this music live, was unamplified, so it was written to be played live. So those strings were played quietly. Making them louder is really obviously 'tweaked', because if strings play louder the tone changes. So for some bits, you have the singer, and the accomaniment is obvious, but is normally way down on the voice. The voice dynamics are within the sounding real range - so this is probably the loudest thing happening - everything else is secondary. If I was mixing it, I might be tempted to use a bit of compression on the things that get lost, like the bass, but the orchestra would be quite a bit down - but this is because I remember this genre very well - laid back and quiet. A style that doesn;t work with the modern loud is best rule.

 

[balky]

I'm certainly not the compressor expert - in fact, for me, it only ever to keep things under control, where probably playing it again could have fixed it.

Clearly you are great at recording - but I'm guessing that you weren't around when this kind of stuff was popular. Lots of this music live, was unamplified, so it was written to be played live. So those strings were played quietly. Making them louder is really obviously 'tweaked', because if strings play louder the tone changes. So for some bits, you have the singer, and the accomaniment is obvious, but is normally way down on the voice. The voice dynamics are within the sounding real range - so this is probably the loudest thing happening - everything else is secondary. If I was mixing it, I might be tempted to use a bit of compression on the things that get lost, like the bass, but the orchestra would be quite a bit down - but this is because I remember this genre very well - laid back and quiet. A style that doesn;t work with the modern loud is best rule.

I am not sure what time frame you are referring to... 1980s?
I have compressed the vocal and I can raise it a bit to make it sound good on the loudest parts of the instrumental, but on the soft parts, the voice will be way too loud... I used C6 side chain compressor for certain frequencies of the instrumenrtal which is triggered by the vocal. But I want to try the EQ Inverse whatever as it has been suggested.
I set it up and matched the voice, now I need to figure out how to make it work only when the voice is coming in. Right now it is always on. We don'[t want that this way

Oh, and thank you for the compliment, Rob! I am flattered I try ... not much experience here.

 

[HumanPlanet]

Having listened again my immediate thoughts have been covered really. The instrumental sounds a bit too loud and the vocal doesn't cut through as well as it might in places.

I would firstly dump the compressor then turn down the instrumental and try the 'EQ Inverse whatever'.

Overdoing this on your stereo file, seperating the vocal in RX, turning down the instrumental -1.5db and Pro-Q3 inverse whatever sounds like this:

View attachment Moon River.mp3

It's not a great demonstration really as all your processing is still there but it should give you an idea of how it might sound.

Better, worse?

As an aside, you don't seem to consider volume automation, it's your friend.

 

[HumanPlanet]

I set it up and matched the voice, now I need to figure out how to make it work only when the voice is coming in. Right now it is always on. We don'[t want that this way

Look on YouTube, I'm sure there will be a ton of tutorials on how to do this, it's not difficult once you know how.

 

[TalismanRich]

As an aside, you don't seem to consider volume automation, it's your friend.

I think this would be the first place I would look. Listening to some old music like Perry Como, Julie London, Rosemary Clooney, Dinah Shore and Dean Martin, I hear the orchestra levels are generally lower during the vocals but there is a slight bump in volume for sections like intros, or maybe an instrumental verse. It doesn't sound like compression, it sounds more like they were riding gain during the mixing process. Not having a volume knob or fader during mixing makes that technique less obvious and a bit more to control, but it can be easily accomplished with automation.

 

[balky]

Look on YouTube, I'm sure there will be a ton of tutorials on how to do this, it's not difficult once you know how.

Nuendo for some reason does not load .vst3 version of fabQ3 and that's the one that has a side-chain capability.
Thanks.
Actually in this version the vocal vs music sounds just how I wanted. Without using slight compression it would sound overpowering the voice.
I need to figure out why vst3 not loading, and I will then try this trick you were suggesting.
I really appreciate your help and the file

 

[balky]

I think this would be the first place I would look. Listening to some old music like Perry Como, Julie London, Rosemary Clooney, Dinah Shore and Dean Martin, I hear the orchestra levels are generally lower during the vocals but there is a slight bump in volume for sections like intros, or maybe an instrumental verse. It doesn't sound like compression, it sounds more like they were riding gain during the mixing process. Not having a volume knob or fader during mixing makes that technique less obvious and a bit more to control, but it can be easily accomplished with automation.

Rich thanks

I do look at some retro songs sometimes for reference. and your are absolutely right. I know how to do automation ur for some reason I chose not to do it. I wanted it to be as gentle as possible... the method I used sounds good but I hear how it works... or maybe i hear it because I know it is there. My friend singer listened to it, and she was very happy with the result. But I will try another approach anyway!
Thanks for your suggestion

 

[rob aylestone]

Surely, if you have the desk or DAW set up properly, the. Your finger is better than any compressor? Date wise, listen to the mid sixties to mid seventies for the main period for this music.

 

[Papanate]

Hi!

I just would like to ask a question that bothers me long time. I was recording a friend last night Moon River - the instrumental was either soft or intense that would make the vocal either jump at you or drown... I was struggling, then I decided to put c6 sidechain compressor on music and let the voice activate it on very loud spots to make it quieter. I think it worked somewhat, but my question is if this kind of a technique common and is used by others???
How would you deal with such cases?

PS and whatever critique you may have, I would like to hear it please. I am always learning Just in case, this is already finished instrumental, so I was just mixing voce+music.

How was the Orchestra recorded? Was it sampled or did you record a real symphony? None the less - the vocals don't have enough presence in comparison to the orchestra - this might be fixed by cutting some midrange out of the Orchestra - in terms of side chains / Buses - I recorded my daughter and used the following: Logic Channel EQ, Drawmer S73 Compressor, Logic DEsser, and Waves Vocal Rider on the vocal tracks - which were bussed out to Abbey Road Plates, Logic Echo, Waves CLA-76, Waves Doubler, and Native Instruments Raum (Reverb) - you can listen to the results and see what you think: https://homerecording.com/bbs/threads/river-song-and-video.421623/#post-4777434

 

[rob aylestone]

Here's another type of arrangement of that song from the same era - Loads of brass and woods - not how her vocal is constant in terms of level and the the basics - piano, bass and vocal stay pretty much fixed - but the saxes and trumpets blast over the top, and the solos are brought up. We often think of recent (as in say, 90s onwards) techniques as the ones that work on everything, but the older ones still work on the right material. Here, you could slap on compressors on her voice and level up the quiet to extreme accompaniment, but that's not how it's done to recreate the sound off the time. Even here double bass is allowed to vanish at some points. I like her stuff - if you google, she even did stuff with Les Paul!

 

[balky]

SO, I decided to use the automation. This is the best way for this! Thanks (TalismanRich) for reminding of automation option. Only I did not automate the volume, but EQd down at 800 hz Q-factor 0.1 ... and it took away the energy (loudness) of the music at certain spots

As far as fab filterl, I did have it, for some reason it is called PRO Q3. I was looking for the wrong thing LOL

Here is the new file ))