Multi-track phasing.

M

Muffin

New member
I'm not even sure if 'phasing' is the right word to use here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm trying to record one instrument with multiple mics and have those tracks perfectly synced together.

I've been experimenting with some guitar recording trying to get a nice full sound(genre: Hardcore). I'm using a Line 6 Bogner HD100 head with a 412 Fender Vintage 30 cab. I've got one SM58 on one speaker and my AT3035 on another(aimed center, 6" from center of cone to grill of mic) and I'm also going through the direct out of the head itself. So 3 tracks to deal with.

I'm recording digitally with Cubase LE 4. After recording a riff, I'll listen to the playback. I've noticed it sounds a bit off so I'll zoom in on the waves of the 3 tracks trying to line them up. I notice that if I move a single track even just a smidge to try to line up with another one, it changes the sound quite noticably. Regardless of how far I zoom in and blow up the image of the waves I'm still having a hard time getting all the tracks to sound synced nicely together.

Is there an easier way to get these tracks to line up better?
 
You should be able to invert the polairty of one of your mic tracks which would solve that issue.

I've never had to shift tracks around in time to get them to line up to avoid phasing issues and I've recorded 2 mics and direct.
 
First things first: Stop looking at your music. It only causes confusion, wasted effort, and wasted time.

Second: Two mics and a DI? That seems a bit much. But if you must, try backing one of the mics off the cab about 6 feet or so.

And no matter where you put the mics, listen to all three tracks on tightly enclosed headphones while you place them (or listen on the control room monitors while your assistant places them in a different room preferably). You will hear the phase as you move the mics. Leave the mics in whatever position eliminates the phase AND picks up the sound you want. That is a billion times more effective than aligning tracks on a DAW.

And yes, sometimes you have to flip phase on one of them. Not always, but remember you can.

When placing the mic, some people have a hard time hearing where the phase relationship is strongest so they choose to place the mic where the phase relationship is weakest and then flip it. Not my preferred way of doing it, but some like it.
 
Armistice said:
You should be able to invert the polairty of one of your mic tracks which would solve that issue.

I've never had to shift tracks around in time to get them to line up to avoid phasing issues and I've recorded 2 mics and direct.
Click to expand...

Would you mind explaining what 'invert polarity' means? I'm not quite sure what that is or how to go about doing it.
 
Muffin said:
I'm not even sure if 'phasing' is the right word to use here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm trying to record one instrument with multiple mics and have those tracks perfectly synced together.

I've been experimenting with some guitar recording trying to get a nice full sound(genre: Hardcore). I'm using a Line 6 Bogner HD100 head with a 412 Fender Vintage 30 cab. I've got one SM58 on one speaker and my AT3035 on another(aimed center, 6" from center of cone to grill of mic) and I'm also going through the direct out of the head itself. So 3 tracks to deal with.

I'm recording digitally with Cubase LE 4. After recording a riff, I'll listen to the playback. I've noticed it sounds a bit off so I'll zoom in on the waves of the 3 tracks trying to line them up. I notice that if I move a single track even just a smidge to try to line up with another one, it changes the sound quite noticably. Regardless of how far I zoom in and blow up the image of the waves I'm still having a hard time getting all the tracks to sound synced nicely together.

Is there an easier way to get these tracks to line up better?
Click to expand...

Any time you're using multiple mics on a single sound source, the sound is going to hit one capsule later than another. You can slide tracks around to line up transients if you like the sound. I do it all the time with drum overheads relative to the snare. I'm not sure how well transients from a mic will relate to a direct input.

Is there a faster way? Sure. Use one mic.
 
mixsit said:
Oh no, not again.

Nice tutorial link though.
Notice where it teaches 3:1 is to attenuate cross bleed on two sources? -not two mics on one.
Click to expand...

Oh I see. I just thought that he said he used a different mic on two different speakers from his amp - does that not count?
 
Paulie Jay said:
Oh I see. I just thought that he said he used a different mic on two different speakers from his amp - does that not count?
Click to expand...

Before you even read the rest of this, think about what 3:1 is and isn't.
:drunk:
Yes, we have two mics but on the same source though. Think it through. The goal here is looking for minimum time /phase difference on a pair of mics that will be mixed together. How would a 3:1' placement help.
Consider an XY pair. The two mic combo called --coherent.

(..Correction, 'coincident' pair is the more accurate trem.

Even if you take a case where you're offsetting the mics in time, for tonal reasons or to go with the resulting phase tone effect, it doesn't apply at all.
 
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Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify in case anyone is confused. I have 2 different mics on a cab with 4 speakers, although only 2 speakers are mic`d.
One mic on one speaker, one on the other.

Someone had mentioned inverting polarity. Would someone be able to explain how I make that happen and also how it would help the phase issue.
 
Muffin said:
..Someone had mentioned inverting polarity. Would someone be able to explain how I make that happen and also how it would help the phase issue.
Click to expand...

... I've noticed it sounds a bit off so I'll zoom in on the waves of the 3 tracks trying to line them up. I notice that if I move a single track even just a smidge to try to line up with another one, it changes the sound quite noticably. Regardless of how far I zoom in and blow up the image of the waves I'm still having a hard time getting all the tracks to sound synced nicely together.
Click to expand...
If as you play one of the tracks, then add a second, (and third), and any of them cause a large drop in volume, one may be polarity inverted.
This would appear in the wave view as the shape of a specifice spot in one track going up, while on another it goes down. (Both from the same point in time- not just a random comparison.)
That would indicate one of the recording paths is flipped in polarity.

If your time differences are small and theyare not already out of polarity, flipping' one will be an obvious degredation.
I would suggest if you are trying to align small differences refer to the sharpest spike only as even 'in-time signals from two mics can look different.

To add a few last things..
A bit of out of phase tone effect can in fact be just the ticket.
(and why you're adding D/I'ing out the back of your amp is another whole question.. from what you said about the two mics that's the one that's likely 'off)

Example; Play and move about in front of your cab. The tone shifts - floor/wall/room multi-path phase. Where is 'Real'. There ain't :drunk:
4-12 cabs, stacks, any open back cab! -all have a shit load of multi-phase tricks going. Compare that to a single 12 closed back. :p
:D
'Right' vs 'wrong'?

Nope. :)
 
mixsit said:
Before you even read the rest of this, think about what 3:1 is and isn't.
:drunk:
Yes, we have two mics but on the same source though. Think it through. The goal here is looking for minimum time /phase difference on a pair of mics that will be mixed together. How would a 3:1' placement help.
Consider an XY pair. The two mic combo called --coherent.

(..Correction, 'coincident' pair is the more accurate trem.

Even if you take a case where you're offsetting the mics in time, for tonal reasons or to go with the resulting phase tone effect, it doesn't apply at all.
Click to expand...
Ok, good to know :-)
 
Inverting polairty - I don't know what your set up is, but somewhere in it you should have the ability to flip the sound wave you've recorded upside down...

This often resolves phasing issues (well it does for me...) from recording using multiple mics on one source (or two very similar sources, as you're doing...
 
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