More Newb Questions: Set-up Analog and DAT

Brother Rob

New member
Ok. Time for my obligatory weekly ignorant questions.

For reference, I have a new to me Tascam MSR-16. I am mixing thru a Tascam 2516. I also have a pair of Tascam DA-88 8 track DAT machines as well as a 2 track DA-30 DAT machine.

Also in the rack is a Tascam IF-AE8 Digital Audio Interface.

First of all, other than effects and preamps, is there anything that a well equipped studio needs?

I purchased this gear as a bulk lot.

I sort of assumed that the best way to leverage this setup will be to use the MSR-16 for all recording and bouncing. Then transferring to the DAT for final clean up and mix down.

For those of you with a combined Analog/DAT studio, can you describe how you go through the process?
 
Second set of setup questions

Now this is really basic

I have been able to get some test tracks onto tape and play it back. But I know it MUST be easier than how I am doing it.

I have the cables going directly from my Mixer to the Tape machine. Then I take the output from the Tape deck back into the inputs of the Mixer

I just don't get how to best wire this setup. My Mixer has a "FLIP" switch which I gather is somehow used for this sort of process. I also have a patch bay which I have zero idea of how to use.

Thanks as always for your patient attention and advice.
 
Do you have the manuals for all the gear? If so (not trying to be cheeky) read them, and if not get them and read them. A lot of your questions may be answered by the manuals. Tascam was/is pretty good when it comes to clearly explained manuals. E.g., I started out with the "Basic 8 track setup" in the M-520 manual, and just adapted from there. Page 13 of the DA-88 manual has a block diagram of setup.

You need to familiarize yourself with the ins/outs on the board, and the gear. and if your patch bay(s) are normalized or not. E,g, I run the two pair of 8 buss outs to a patchbay, which is normalized to go stright to the ins on my msr-16. I can "break the normal" and patch the buss outs then to another recorder, which ins come to another patch bay. (Not sure if I'm explainig hta tclearly.)

As for integrating the DAT's. I have a similar setup with a 16 channel Creamware A-16 (I still need to fashion the snakes, the damn thing is ring hot....) and a 16 channel light pipe card. (Sonorus) The theory will be to move the analog tracks onto the A-16, then from the A-16 to the PC via ADAT.

The DA-88 doesn't have ADAT output, so if you want to avoid an D/A A/D conversion from the DAT to the computer, you'd need to look for a PC card that has a TDIF interface.
 
I am sure that someday all of the terminology and Jargon will be second nature to me. Can't wait for that day.

Do you have the manuals for all the gear? If so (not trying to be cheeky) read them, and if not get them and read them. A lot of your questions may be answered by the manuals. Tascam was/is pretty good when it comes to clearly explained manuals. E.g., I started out with the "Basic 8 track setup" in the M-520 manual, and just adapted from there. Page 13 of the DA-88 manual has a block diagram of setup.


Yeah. Not "cheeky" at all. "RTFM" is always good advice. I've done that and this is what got me to the point where I have been able to get some test tracks down and played back. But there really is a lot going on that isn't well explained (for me) in the manuals. And I know there are better methods than what I am doing at this point. For instance the manual mentions the "FLIP" but explains nothing about how to use it. The manuals have OK diagrams of wiring from the Mixer out to the Recorder. But virtually no explanation of the best way to get signal back for monitoring and "cues". The manuals mention the existence of such a thing as Patch Bays, but no suggestion of use. The Patch Bay manual is virtually useless.

You need to familiarize yourself with the ins/outs on the board, and the gear. and if your patch bay(s) are normalized or not. E,g, I run the two pair of 8 buss outs to a patchbay, which is normalized to go stright to the ins on my msr-16. I can "break the normal" and patch the buss outs then to another recorder, which ins come to another patch bay. (Not sure if I'm explainig hta tclearly.)

I'm sorry, I have no idea what that means, implies, how it is done, why it is done, nor why it is good.

As for integrating the DAT's. I have a similar setup with a 16 channel Creamware A-16 (I still need to fashion the snakes, the damn thing is ring hot....) and a 16 channel light pipe card. (Sonorus) The theory will be to move the analog tracks onto the A-16, then from the A-16 to the PC via ADAT.

The DA-88 doesn't have ADAT output, so if you want to avoid an D/A A/D conversion from the DAT to the computer, you'd need to look for a PC card that has a TDIF interface.
Again, that "wooshing" noise is the sound of jargon going over my head like a jet plane.

See, I know this is basic stuff and second nature to you guys. For example the "ABC" of just having an input from a mic to the mixer into Track 1 then wiring it out to the Recorder. For playback/dubbing/punching/monitoring should I have a wire coming back from the output of the recorder track 1 into the same Track 1 that the Mic is still plugged into? Basic stuff indeed.

Before even considering how to use the DAT and patch bays, it sounds to me like I need two full sets of cables. One for input to the recorder from the mixer. And another for output from the recorder back to the mixer. I'm assuming these come right back into the same tracks on the mixer that I am using for recording input. I still don't understand the best way to wire it. I am at the point where I am not sure exactly which output from the recorder should go to which input to the mixer and why. It is a little frustrating to get an answer of "you'll need to familiarize yourself with the ins/outs on the board and the gear", that's exactly what I'm looking for help on. But I guess I'll figure it out by trial and error and more slogging thru manuals and then more trial and error!

I sincerely do appreciate your reply.
 
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Most boards that we would be using (aka "prosumer" or "unbalanced" -10dB consoles) generally have some or all of the following I/O

Ins:
Mic In (XLR)
Line In (rca or phone)
Tape in or "Tape return" (rca or phone)
Aux return

Outs:
Direct out
Aux send
monitor out
Buss (line) out

Again, oversimplification, and will ignore the aux, monitor, etc. I am not familiar with your board, so I'll stick to the basic setup. (Also, there is often more than one way to get a signal to .e.g. your monitors, your headphones, etc, depending on your setup)

I started out with a small 6x2 (meaning 6 inputs 2 "buss" outputs) and a 4 track deck. From there I moved up to a Teac 5 (8x4) and a Tascam 38, then a M-520 (20x8) and a MSR-16. But the gozintas and gozoutas, generally stay the same conceptually.

The Teac 5/Tascam 38 (although the 5 board is really better suited to 4 track not 8 track) is probably easiest to envision and explain. I also have a four track 22-4, so let's use that as the example. A "standard" routing would be

Teac 5 buss outs -----> line ins Teac 22-4 (1-4)
Teac 22-4 line outs -----> Teac 5 Tape return (1-4)

The Teac 5 has one Aux ("Echo") so the Aux out ("Echo out") would be connected to a reverb device and the Echo return from that device. The "Cue out" would be sent to e.g. a headphone amp (I have a Behringer that allows four sets of headphones)

(****note that Aux usually is an effects send/return, so Aux send, effects send etc, are the same it happens to be called Echo on the Teac 5, and aux out refers to something else. -- inconsistent I know)

There is a switch at the top of the channel strip which is mic-tape-line. So if I'm recording, it will generally be mic or line, and if I'm mixing it will be 'Flipped" to tape.

There are more routing permutations, even on the Teac 5, but this hopefully isn't too muddled an explanation.

Normal:

I have a couple of 32 point patchbays (16 on top/16 on bottom) that are 'normalled.' (I don't remember top or bottom) at the moment, I'm not at them) so e.g. my board (M-520) is an 8 buss board. I generally use the buss outs rather than direct outs, although there are different schools of thought on that. The M-520 has two sets of buss outs (it's still 1-8, just two sets of 1-8) so unless I use the direct outs (which would require me to run extra cables) I can only record 8 tracks at once. Let's assume I'm OK with that. So, the buss outs go to the bottom of back of the patch bay. It is normalled, meaning that there is a connection between the bottom row of rca jacks and the top row of rca jacks on the back of the panel. So then I connect the top row to the ins of the MSR-16. But, if I want to use my Tascam 38, or Fostex A-8, I have the ins of those coming to yet another patch bay. I can "break the normal" by connecting an rca cable to the top row of the patch bay with the buss outs to the line in on the A-8, 38, what have you.

ADAT is a type of digital interface, 8 channels over an optical cable. The A I think stands for Alesis, but it's become something of a generic standard. TDIF is a Tascam interface, similarly AFAIK carries 8 channels of digital information.

I would guess you could find an PC interface card with TDIF inputs. (I haven't researched that as I don't have any gear that uses TDIF.)
 
Also, I recommend you get the book "Musician's Guide to Home Recording." by Peter McIan and Larry Wichman. It was written in the 80s, pre-digital/pro-tools so is perfect for the type of setups we are using. I've found it to be a great resouce. There is also one by Craig Anderton with a similar title, and Sting on the cover with a four track tascam.
 
Most boards...

That is remarkably helpful!

I sincerely appreciate the time and thought that went into this response.

A lot for me to digest.

My board has

IN:
Tape In (RCA)
Insert (1/4" Phone)
Line (1/4" Phone)
Mic (XLR)

OUT:
Direct (RCA)

Group 1-8 (RCA)
Studio L/R (RCA)
Control Room L/R (1/4" Phone)
Aux 1-4 (1/4" Phone) - I use this for effects as you describe in your post
Stereo L/R (XLR and 1/4" Phone)

I also have Effects returns

So starting out, it seems for the easiest and most basic set-up I can use my Group Outs 1-8 going to my Recorder and then route back from the Recorder using the Tape In, again 1-8
 
Man sounds like you got a lot to learn....but I was there before also!! The mixer you have sounds like it is whats caled an "in-line" board meaning that:it doubles the channels so that via the flip switch you can play back your tape tracks in the same channel but without using the main faders.the tape play back controls(after "flipping") will be different than the main faders(sliders) so that you dont have to mess up your level settings while tracking.If this helps some i will go further ok?? Let me know ;)
 
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