'MONO' monitoring?

student8

New member
Hi guys,

Just wondering a bit about 'mono' mixes here.

I've often heard it's a really good idea to 'double-check' your mixes in 'mono' mode, to ensure your mix will sound good in 'mono' cases, or just to have a good 'solid' mix.

My real question at hand is this: In your studio, should you check your 'mono' mixes with your regular 'stereo' pair of reference monitors - or - check the mono mix on one, 'single' monitor, located in between the stereo monitors?

(I've heard it recommended both ways, so I was just kinda wanting to get the 'overall' ruling on this one:)

-thanks.
 
I hit the 'mono' button on the monitor matrix box and it mono's the mix out to the various pairs of monitors connected to it.

It's fine for phase checking and all that stuff. I do also mixdown work in mono in analog tape using a Nagra IV for one band I'm in and have often thought about a single mono monitor in the middle of the desk specifically for that, but that's just a waste of money when I think about it.

When I started home recording I never checked phase. Now I always do it.

:)
 
My real question at hand is this: In your studio, should you check your 'mono' mixes with your regular 'stereo' pair of reference monitors - or - check the mono mix on one, 'single' monitor, located in between the stereo monitors?
It shouldn't matter that much which way you use it. Either way, the signal remains the same and you'll hear the same thing. There may be some small, subtle differences because of room acoustics, but they won't have any effect on the test.

The real question in my mind is why so many folks can't hear the phase problems in stereo. If you're set up with your ears equidistant to your stereo monitors, you shouldn't need to switch to mono to hear phase issues. And as far as frequency balance in mono, that should be easy to hear and figure out without making the switch.

G.
 
I think it is a good idea to check the sound. I used to use a not expensive car speaker or clock radio speaker as a test on the mono mix. Now I am more concerned with how my mixes sound on laptop computer speakers.
 
Call me pigheaded, but I don't mix, nor check my mixes, in mono, nor do I care how they sound on laptop speakers.

I like to mix in stereo so that as the mix is progressing I get a clear understanding of the spatial arrangment and relationships. If I hear a problem here, I address it (whether it's a phase issue or anything else).

Laptop computer speakers vary considerably in quality, mostly (but not always) from bad to awful. You could make a mix sound reasonable on one set, but have it sound dire on another. So why bother? (The same goes for mixing for car speakers). There is no generic mix that will suit all. The closest you will get is by creating a mix that behaves sensibly on your monitors, and hope that your monitors are likewise acoustically well-behaved.
 
The real question in my mind is why so many folks can't hear the phase problems in stereo. If you're set up with your ears equidistant to your stereo monitors, you shouldn't need to switch to mono to hear phase issues. And as far as frequency balance in mono, that should be easy to hear and figure out without making the switch.

As a guy who isn't really a "noob" but clearly isn't an expert either, I think I can probably give a good answer here...

I think it's a great way to "learn" to hear phasing issues because it really calls attention to them. On some level, even without knowing what you're hearing, you can usually tell if something sounds a little "odd" in the mix, but there could be countless reasons for that. If it happens to be because it's phasing badly, then if you collapse to mono, it'll become really obvious what your problem is, and the next time you hear that, you can think, "oh, that sounds like a phasing issue." I mean, I suspect most people when they first start tracking and mixing don't have an innate understanding of what phasing sounds like... Collapsing to mono can help. Furthermore, something badly out of phase is pretty obvious; something slightly out of phase might not be until you train your ears what to listen for.

I'd never even heard the "collapse to mono" recommendation until pretty recently, and for me it was kind of interesting to try. I think over the maybe 10 years I've been screwing around in my bedroom I've gotten a pretty good intuitive sense of how to listen for phasing issues, and ended up learning about phasing more by reading about phase alignment issues than by listening, but it was still kind of cool to flip a mix into mono, listen to it, then flip it back into stereo and listen again and listen to how things change.

I generally do it anyway midway through a mix not because I care terribly about how something collapses to mono, but because it's a simple push of a button in Reaper, so it takes me all of 5 seconds and it's nice to just have an added check in place in case I've done something bone-headed and just somehow not noticed. :D

I think the thing that's been the biggest eye-opener for me, pun not intended, was starting to mix with my eyes closed. I've been an inside-the-box digital guy from day one, so I've sort of been encouraged to think about EQ tweaks and whatnot in graphical/numerical senses. Hitting play, grabbing an EQ fader with my mouse, closing my eyes, and just tweaking blindly and listening to what I was hearing with no preconceptions of what numbers "should" work was probably one of the bigger breakthroughs I've had since joining this board, if nothing else because at some level we ALL have those mental hangups like "it's cool to low-pass guitars in E below 80hz, because that's where the low E falls," or "a slight cut at 400hz generally sounds good on heavy guitars" or whatnot. It's just the easiest way I've found to toss all that stuff out the window.

I just wish I had better monitors. :p
 
I don't even start panning until it sounds good in mono. (Thanks, GZ - Corrected)

I'm with Glenn to a large extent though - I don't "need" to sum to mono and I can hear phase issues just fine. That said, getting the mix just about "there" in mono is just a simpler path to a better sounding mix (IMO/E).
 
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I always check in mono:

The main reason is that you will get that keyboard player that insists that the key boards are recorded in stereo and paned left and right, only for me to find that to get that unrealistic wide stereo sound the keyboard maker has fiddled with the phase relationship and when the 2 channels are played back in mono there are no keyboards in the mix (phase cancellation).

The same goes for these stereo guitar rigs.

Cheers

Alan.
 
If the mix is never likely to be played in mono, and with a practised ear, perhaps it's not worth the trouble.

In earlier times when stereo was new and most people still heard records in mono (and records were produced in both mono and stereo versions) the stereo/mono compatibility thing was more bigtime.

Another issue, unrelated to phase as discussed so far is that in mono, the centre information, such as the vocal, tends to be more prominent in monoed than stereo. The information not common to left and right tends to recede in the mix by maybe 3 or 4db.

A good ear can detect moderate to large phase incoherence, but nobody's ears are good enough to pick fine phase discrepances in the highs. Maybe dogs and cats can but we cant. Remember, when you move your head the slightest amount, you are altering the relative distance between your ears and the monitors if ever so slightly. But only when you sum the channels electrically do you hear high freq phase problems that you would never detect in stereo.

In analog tape days this was more of an issue. A tape head alignment error might not be a problem in stereo but sum to mono and the faeces could start to hit the fan. Example, the very sucessful 1970 CSNY Deja Vu album. Listen to Teach Your Children, a big hit at the time. Sum in mono and listen to the vocals. They sound like a low bitrate mp3. But in stereo, bearable. Apparently a fairly elaborate production in its day and most likely some maintenance tech didnt have the tape machines correctly aligned to each other. Other tracks on the album have similar problems. I used to think it was just confined to the original Australian release but then I heard Joe Gastwirt's remaster to CD and exactly the same problems. But I'm still amazed it ever got through all stages of production in that state.

Remember too that to halve file size (eg: youtube) a stereo file is sometimes summed to mono which inevitable shows up phase issues that werent apparent in stereo. Only a fool acts as if everybody will be listening to his tracks in the pristine conditions in which he listened to them.
 
Only a fool acts as if everybody will be listening to his tracks in the pristine conditions in which he listened to them.

It's a bit more complicated than that. It is impossible to construct a mix in such a way that it will sound good on every system. You really have no choice but to make it sound as good as you can on your system, then hope that this translates well across at least some of the plethora of systems out there. This is not being 'foolish'. This is being realistic.
 
what ever happened to the Auratone speaker? (aka horror tone). Anyone still using those?

Designed specifically as a shitty mono speaker? I forget why that was such a big deal at one point.
 
If the mix is never likely to be played in mono, and with a practised ear, perhaps it's not worth the trouble.

In earlier times when stereo was new and most people still heard records in mono (and records were produced in both mono and stereo versions) the stereo/mono compatibility thing was more bigtime.

Another issue, unrelated to phase as discussed so far is that in mono, the centre information, such as the vocal, tends to be more prominent in monoed than stereo. The information not common to left and right tends to recede in the mix by maybe 3 or 4db.

A good ear can detect moderate to large phase incoherence, but nobody's ears are good enough to pick fine phase discrepances in the highs. Maybe dogs and cats can but we cant. Remember, when you move your head the slightest amount, you are altering the relative distance between your ears and the monitors if ever so slightly. But only when you sum the channels electrically do you hear high freq phase problems that you would never detect in stereo.

In analog tape days this was more of an issue. A tape head alignment error might not be a problem in stereo but sum to mono and the faeces could start to hit the fan. Example, the very sucessful 1970 CSNY Deja Vu album. Listen to Teach Your Children, a big hit at the time. Sum in mono and listen to the vocals. They sound like a low bitrate mp3. But in stereo, bearable. Apparently a fairly elaborate production in its day and most likely some maintenance tech didnt have the tape machines correctly aligned to each other. Other tracks on the album have similar problems. I used to think it was just confined to the original Australian release but then I heard Joe Gastwirt's remaster to CD and exactly the same problems. But I'm still amazed it ever got through all stages of production in that state.

Remember too that to halve file size (eg: youtube) a stereo file is sometimes summed to mono which inevitable shows up phase issues that werent apparent in stereo. Only a fool acts as if everybody will be listening to his tracks in the pristine conditions in which he listened to them.
So, are you saying it's neccessarry or not? Your first sentence seems to say it's not important, but the rest of your post makes a pretty good case for it. :eek:
 
Personally, if I'm taking a picture or painting a painting, I'm not going to worry about what it looks like if the user hangs it under a fluorescent tube shop light, or indirect candle light, or other awful lighting conditions. I can't help or control that, and I'm not going to compromise the color balance or white balance temperature or anything else of the artwork simply to accommodate those conditions, and frankly I don't see a whole lot of reason to do that with a musical picture either.

At some point the listener needs to take some responsibility to put the picture in a well-lit location or to play the music back on a proper playback medium to truly appreciate it. And they need to have some understanding that they can't expect a error-free playback of quality music on a clock radio.

Like the schmaltzy old song said, "You can't please everyone/So you gotta please yourself." Just make the best mix you can like Rembrandt make the best paintings he could (in as perfect a light as he could find, BTW), and don't worry about the public. If you're any good, it'll work itself out. If you're not, then it really doesn't matter either way, does it?

G.
 
It's a bit more complicated than that. It is impossible to construct a mix in such a way that it will sound good on every system. You really have no choice but to make it sound as good as you can on your system, then hope that this translates well across at least some of the plethora of systems out there. This is not being 'foolish'. This is being realistic.

My last sentence was a general comment which included the mono sum thing.

Sure, it's not possible to construct a mix that will sound good on each and every system. I didnt say it is. But it's quite another thing to say there's nothing you can do to make it sound better than it might have sounded for the average listener if you only listened to it under ideal studio monitoring conditions.
For example a bass line that gets most of its power from fundamentals below 100hz and has little or no harmonics above that will virtually disappear for many listeners in real life environments. Just making sure that as well as the fundamental there is also some harmonics ("balls") in the bass track ensures a lot more people will actually have a chance of hearing the bass line when listened to on less than pristine gear in less than ideal conditions. You can call me "unrealistic" for mentioning this but I actually think it's being realistic.

Cheers Tim
 
So, are you saying it's neccessarry or not? Your first sentence seems to say it's not important, but the rest of your post makes a pretty good case for it. :eek:

I wasnt aware it was a "yes/no" multiple choice test!

If the thing's never listened to in mono then mono summing seems a waste of time. But do we know people wont hear it in mono?

I gave a real life old timey example of a big top 40 hit that had big phase problems in the days when it would have been regularly played on mono consumer gear. I mentioned Youtube where music videos are regularly presented in a mono only file.

No contradiction here, just trying to be even handed.

Cheers Tim
 
what ever happened to the Auratone speaker? (aka horror tone). Anyone still using those?

Designed specifically as a shitty mono speaker? I forget why that was such a big deal at one point.
It's design was supposed to mimic TV, clock radio, and transistor radios of the time. None of those things sound like that any more, so the reference isn't as usefull.


I do check in mono. The local metal station (where most of my local bands will get played) is AM mono. My daughter's old car (Ford Escort) had it's speakers aimed in such a manner that you were pretty much listening in mono. (Yes, it was hooked up right. You could pan and fade and the first Van Halen album still had bass and guitar coming out of the correct speakers)

I understand that no one can predict how thier stuff will be listened to, but some semblance of mono compatability will help your mixes translate in any situation.
 
I wasnt aware it was a "yes/no" multiple choice test!

No contradiction here, just trying to be even handed.

Cheers Tim

Sorry Tim. I didn't mean that in a confrontational manner. I was confused by your answer because I wasn't sure if there was a contradiction or not. But you're right, it doesn't have to be one or the other.:cool:
 
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What's mono?

Just kidding.. but personally I don't think too much about it. I do mix most of the way there without panning though (although some elements may already be stereo WAVs) to try and ensure an OK mix that is not entirely reliant on fancy shooting for it's sound

But as far as mono goes, about the only thing I can think of in my own or most people I can think of's entire world that would be mono is AM radio in the car, and quite frankly even on a high end $3.5k system, between the compression the station puts on and the crappy, staticy reception, signals that fade in and out and overlap, everything on AM Radio sounds like sh!t (comparatively speaking anyway, I guess when we were kids we didn't know any better) no matter how it was mixed so I don't see much reason to worry about it.

I would just caveat all of that by saying I am an idiot and in no way a professional music maker however.
 
That reminds me of another point. Even with FM radio stations, when you get on the edge of the reception, it drops to mono. So driving around the far suburbs can make those ultra-wide guitars come and go every few feet.
 
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