Monitor experience

Kelby

New member
I've been shopping for a set of monitors for the past couple months and thought I'd share my experience.

I wanted to keep the cost under $1k. I auditioned everything I could find in that range. I even got to look at some Mackie 824s for that price, as the Mars store in my area is liquidating and had a pair for $850. At the liquidation price, the 824s were the best thing I could find under $1k.

Before making a final decision, though, I browsed through this board for any other suggestions. I saw some posts by barefoot expressing his view that some of the DIY speaker kits on the market would outperform similarly priced monitors. Coincidentally, I had built a pair of DIY speakers from a kit a year and a half ago. (No, this is not a sales pitch, and I have no affiliation with any company having anything to do with speakers or monitors.) The kit had come out quite well (so well, in fact that I immediately upgraded to another kit, leaving the first completed kit unused in my garage). After reading barefoot's posts, I figured I would try the unused kit speakers in my recording setup and see whether I really needed the Mackies.

I am very pleased with the results I'm getting from the kit, and I have decided to stick with it. The kit speakers were more accurate than anything I had auditioned, including the 824s. Also, they had a significantly lower low-frequency cut-off than the monitors I had auditioned. (This surprised me a bit, because my kit speakers have an F-3 rolloff at about 55Hz, while the 824s' spec sheet says their F-3 is 37Hz. I listened to the 824s again the other day when I was at Guitar Center, and I'm havin' a real tough time figuring how they claim that their 3dB drop-off is at 37 Hz. Methinks the folks at Mackie may be doing some of that "new math" . . . . :))

I'm not looking to start a debate here about the use of hi-fi speakers in place of monitors. To me, it is without question that 99.99% of consumer-oriented hi-fi speakers lack the linearity that is desirable in monitors. But there are some DIY companies out there putting together kits that are designed to achieve that linearity. Building a set of monitors is not for everyone, but my experience is that you can get a significantly higher quality pair of monitors for the money, provided you have (1) the ability to solder, and (2) the willingness to spend a weekend or two putting them together.

For those interested, the kit I used was the "Aria 5R." It uses two 5" Focal woofers and a Raven R-1 ribbon tweeter. I picked it up from a DIY company called Zalytron for about $650 a year ago; they are running about $700 now. (These prices were for the drivers and the electronics, and did not include the boxes, which I built myself.) I am amplifying them through a Hafler TA1600.
 
Kelby,

I'm with you on this one! DIY speaker building can achieve better results than buying a manufactured speaker. Not always of course, but in general you're going to pay a lot more for a brand name speaker than you will for a kit of the same quality/performance. Speaker companies will cut corners to keep costs down, whereas you can spend as much as you want doing the DIY thing. There are a lot of proven kits out there (Like your Aria 5Rs), and they achieve stellar performance. I myself went with DIY kits when building my Home Theater system. I went with the Aria 7s. Bought the components from Zalyton, and the boxes from Speaker City. The best part about DIY is the ability to tweak things. I didn't particularily like the way the Aria 7s sounded as they were designed, so I went to the friendly people at the Madisound BBS, got some advice, and tweaked the crossovers. My speakers now sound better than anything else I've ever had (or heard), and I'd put them up against any other passive speakers out there at any price. I also bought a kit for my surrounds (which would probably work great for nearfield monitoring). If you want more info, you could visit my web site for some details and bragging stuff. ;) http://www.hoppehome.com/jaysht

I'll admit that I may end up with the JBL LSR25P monitors for my new PC set up, but that is only because it's a real pain to design active monitoring. Besides, I hear those are some great speakers!

Just thought I'd add my bit of enthusiasm for DIY speaker building.
 
Holy shit Kelby, you took MY advice!!!????

All that DIY speaker kit stuff was a joke! A joke, man!! I don't know squat about speakers!:D

Seriously, it's nice to see someone has actually been reading and UNDERSTANDING what I write. Aria 5R, nice choice.:) I'm 100% with you on the small midbass driver approach. In fact I was just about to post a new thread on this topic when I noticed your post. Check it out here in the Mixing forum.

LT,
Cool web site, and nice system. :) Hey, I recognize that TC Sounds driver. Looks like they make drivers for Velodyne. Am I right?

barefoot
 
LT,
Nice web site and nice system.

Barefoot,
When I saw your posts that motivated me to try my DIY speakers as monitors, I also noticed one of your posts discussing a "dream monitor" system you wanted to built based upon the Raven R-3. I use a pair of speakers based upon the R-3 to run my hi-fi system. I bought these as completed speakers from Orca Design (the U.S. distributor for Focal, Raven, and a lot of these drivers). I did not build these; Orca built for the NAMM convention a couple years back and sold them to me afterwards. The R-3s are simply amazing. There is nothing else out there at any price (whether in the world of monitors or hi-fi) that I have ever listed to that are even in the same league in terms of accuracy, imaging, or any other criteria short of the ability to fold my laundry. If you ever get the chance to build monitors using them, I am sure you will not be disappointed. Good luck.
 
Kelby said:
I use a pair of speakers based upon the R-3 to run my hi-fi system. I bought these as completed speakers from Orca Design (the U.S. distributor for Focal, Raven, and a lot of these drivers). I did not build these; Orca built for the NAMM convention a couple years back and sold them to me afterwards.
Is this the NY Noise Maker?
 
LT,
Nice web site and nice system.

Barefoot,
When I saw your posts that motivated me to try my DIY speakers as monitors, I also noticed one of your posts discussing a "dream monitor" system you wanted to built based upon the Raven R-3. I use a pair of speakers based upon the R-3 to run my hi-fi system. I bought these as completed speakers from Orca Design (the U.S. distributor for Focal, Raven, and a lot of these drivers). I did not build these; Orca built for the NAMM convention a couple years back and sold them to me afterwards. The R-3s are simply amazing. There is nothing else out there at any price (whether in the world of monitors or hi-fi) that I have ever listed to that are even in the same league in terms of accuracy, imaging, or any other criteria short of the ability to fold my laundry. If you ever get the chance to build monitors using them, I am sure you will not be disappointed. Good luck.
 
This site has always intrigued me:

http://www.speakerpage.com/

They sell a kit for a small bookshelf speaker (minus the enclosure) for $67.00/pair. Another one that, from the freq. response, looks a bit flatter and has more bass, sells for $90 but is currently sold out.

They also sell drivers for about the best prices I've seen.
 
First, I apologize to everyone for posting my last message twice. My browser was pretending that I had not yet hit the "Submit Reply" button.

Second, barefoot, no this is not the New York Noisemaker. It is a bit beyond that. It was something they called the "Paloma." It uses an R-3, a PHL midbass, and a Cabasse 21" (no that is not a typo) woofer called the 55ND. Sort of like a New York Noisemaker on steroids. Orca made some really wild cabinets for them out of molded sheet metal, and they look like something out of Star-Trek. They sound absolutely incredible. Now I just need a bigger house to fit them in.
 
http://www.speakerpage.com/

This place has great prices for 5" poly woofers and 1" silk dome tweeters.

Any chance you want to put together a design based on their stuff that us homerec'ers could manage, barefoot? ;)
 
Wow, check out the fat wallet on Kelby. ;)

R3 & 55ND... thems sum spensive componints ya got thar. :D

Biamped?
 
Barefoot,
Orca gave me a great deal on the system because it was "used." It was still pricey, but I had saved a long time for something like this. I'm glad I did. Now I have to save for another long time to get an amp and pre-amp that can drive them. Running these beasts with my po' boy Sony receiver is like putting cloth seats in a Rolls Royce.

Fortunately, I will only need to buy one amp because it's not biamped. I'm not sure why they did not biamp it, but the drivers are sufficiently sensitive that it doesn't take a lot of power to make an awful lot of noise. My little Sony receiver is doing a fine job making them sing beautifully and loudly until I can afford the real amp and pre-amp.
 
Re: http://www.speakerpage.com/

Dolemite said:
This place has great prices for 5" poly woofers and 1" silk dome tweeters.

Any chance you want to put together a design based on their stuff that us homerec'ers could manage, barefoot? ;)
No, I'll pass on speakerpage.com. Their stuff is usually a little too off off-brand for me.

That 5" poly driver I mentioned happens to be rather unique. You can't generalize that to say all 5" poly drivers have great performance. Most are crap.

BTW, that Vifa D27TG-35 tweeter is almost identical to the tweeter in the 20/20's. Of course Event buys them in bulk, so they have the ability to bin split matched units. I don't know of any retail supplier selling cheap matched tweeter pairs. Labor costs tend to limit this to more expensive models. Another difficulty in trying to design a cheap DIY monitor.
 
Re: Re: http://www.speakerpage.com/

barefoot said:
No, I'll pass on speakerpage.com. Their stuff is usually a little too off off-brand for me.

That 5" poly driver I mentioned happens to be rather unique. You can't generalize that to say all 5" poly drivers have great performance. Most are crap.

BTW, that Vifa D27TG-35 tweeter is almost identical to the tweeter in the 20/20's. Of course Event buys them in bulk, so they have the ability to bin split matched units. I don't know of any retail supplier selling cheap matched tweeter pairs. Labor costs tend to limit this to more expensive models. Another difficulty in trying to design a cheap DIY monitor.

What about the 5" Vifa for $15? Crap as well?

So give us a model # for this 5" woofer you keep mentioning. ;)

I'd be surprised if most speaker manufacturers actually did match drivers for a $200-300 pair of speakers...
 
Actually, no. TC Sounds doesn't make anything for Velodyne. They do make a lot of other well known brands though, like Eclipse, Mass, Magma, etc etc... long list...

TC Sounds pretty much invented the modern ultra-high-excursion subwoofer as we know it. Velodyne and other companies are now playing catch-up!
 
If you guys are really interesting in DIY speakers, the best place to go would be the Madisound BBS. They've got some speaker gurus there that will make your heads spin...I don't understand even half of what they're talking about most of the time.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi

If you'd like to look into some excellent kit ideas, check out:

http://www.zalytron.com

and

http://www.speakercity.com

You'll spend probably half the $ on kits than you would on commercial speakers of the same sonic qualities.

My Brother (Phloodpants) and I had a chance to attend the 2001 DIY speaker convention/contest this past year, and I was amazed by what some people are building for close to nothing. One category of this event is the 'Budget Class' where they aren't allowed to spend more than $150 total on a pair of speakers. Some of these things sounded better than commercial speakers costing $2000+.

Here's a link to one of the participants of DIY 2001.

http://home.columbus.rr.com/dkuzma/darren/

This guy builds some amazing sounding speakers.

DIY is not only cheap, but it's rewarding as well. It feels really good to build speakers for yourself...you can just sit back with a big-ass smile on your face when you listen.
 
Kelby said:
Fortunately, I will only need to buy one amp because it's not biamped. I'm not sure why they did not biamp it, but the drivers are sufficiently sensitive that it doesn't take a lot of power to make an awful lot of noise.
Kimon Bellas is a really knowledgeable guy, but I find I often disagree with him on design philosophy. Personally I wouldn't build a system with a passive sub crossover like that. Especially one with over $6k worth of drivers in it.
Dolemite said:
What about the 5" Vifa for $15? Crap as well?
So give us a model # for this 5" woofer you keep mentioning. ;)
I'd be surprised if most speaker manufacturers actually did match drivers for a $200-300 pair of speakers...
I'm not familiar with that particular Vifa driver. It's not one that I ever chose to use. The 5" midbass I'm referring to is no big secret. It's the Vifa P13WH. Of course, the key is knowing HOW to integrate it into a world class loudspeaker.;)

I'm pretty sure even some of the cheaper models at least match drivers for sensitivity.

Just a word of caution about DIY speakers kits. The ones I've suggested are designed to meet the first and most basic criterion for recording monitors - flat on axis frequency response. There are of course many other factors than this which separate good monitors from bad ones, but this is basic. Many "hi-fi" designs are not actually concerned with flat on axis response. Don't just pick any old kit at random because it "looks good" or even "sounds good".

barefoot
 
Hey Barefoot,

I've got an interesting situation for ya here. I've come upon a set of Phase Tech PC-60's, basic 2-way acoustic suspension bookshelf speakers. 1" silk dome tweeter and 6.5" flat piston woofer. It appears that the woofers have been recently reconed, but the centers of these flat piston woofers are pretty rough - one of them especially so. Now, it appears that Phase Tech still stocks a replacement woofer, but they want $100/pair. I'd like to save these speakers, but $100 is a lot more than I've got into them so far. ;)

Is there any chance I could replace the original woofers with a set of $23 Audax kevlar cone woofers or something similar if I try to match specs?

The current equivalent to the PC-60 is here:

http://www.phasetech.com/products/html/pc1.html

Relevent specs:

Frequency Response: 48-22,000 Hz
Impedance: 6 Ohms
Sensitivity: 89dB


I'm quite sure that there's more to it than this, but if I find woofers with matching impedence (actually 8 ohms is all I'm finding) and sensitivity, and enough frequency response to handle any logical crossover point, would this be a viable replacement for the stock woofers?
 
Dolemite said:
Is there any chance I could replace the original woofers with a set of $23 Audax kevlar cone woofers or something similar if I try to match specs?
No. There is much more to it than what you mentioned. Finding a driver that will plug right into the existing cabinet and crossovers is a lost cause. You'll most likely just make things worse.
 
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