Tom Hicks
Well-known member
Here's a stab at the old standard Autumn Leaves. Another chance for me to work on my "mediantics" jazz improv style.Comments and brickbats?
http://music-tom.com/leaves.wma
http://music-tom.com/leaves.wma
mo jazz
- Thread starter Tom Hicks
- Start date
AlChuck
Well-known member
Tom,
It's one thing to use Band In A Box to generate jazz tracks to practice over, but as an offering of a tune for people to listen to you get a D right off the bat.
Even if you felt it was a worthwhile endeavor to do this, why oh why did you not at least mute the melody track? If you're going to play the melody but the original is still there, you need to play together with it. It's really glaringly off many times through the head.
Sorry, I don't like being brutal but I don't want to shit you either.
P.S. Explain "mediantics jazz improvisation." I don't get what you mean.
It's one thing to use Band In A Box to generate jazz tracks to practice over, but as an offering of a tune for people to listen to you get a D right off the bat.
Even if you felt it was a worthwhile endeavor to do this, why oh why did you not at least mute the melody track? If you're going to play the melody but the original is still there, you need to play together with it. It's really glaringly off many times through the head.
Sorry, I don't like being brutal but I don't want to shit you either.
P.S. Explain "mediantics jazz improvisation." I don't get what you mean.
Tom Hicks
Well-known member
AlChuck
No problem. The rhythm bed is midi but both the keyboard melody and guitar melody were tracked, as well as the guitar solo. The timing variations with the two melody tracks were actually quite intentional. In jazz, the freedom of interpreting the melody rhythmically (even in the unison melody part) is quite common.
Sorry is using midi like this isn't kosher. The tune is a vehicle to explore the "Mediantics" jazz improvisation style of Werner Poelert. Did you notice the lack of use of the chord roots in the solo?
As you know, many chords share common tones; G7, B dim, Dm7 etc. Poelerts style has you substitute up a third. The third of a chord is also known as its mediant, hence "mediantics". This gets you out of the box of playing in habitual patterns oriented around the root of the chord.
Poelerts substitution pattern can be summerized as follows;
For major chords, solo on the pentatonic form based on the third. Example: for C major7 chord, use E within its G pentatonic framework.
For minor chords, solo on the root.
For dominant 7 chords solo on the fifth or (for bluesy flatted sounds) the fourth. Example: G7, use D with in its F pentatonic pattern.
For half diminished (m7b5) solo on the third.
Diminished and other special cases you just have to spell out, they are outside this technique. Try this out and see if it doesn't "open up" your harmonic thinking. It is sure helping me think outside of the normal boxes and muscle-memory patterns I have developed over time.
No problem. The rhythm bed is midi but both the keyboard melody and guitar melody were tracked, as well as the guitar solo. The timing variations with the two melody tracks were actually quite intentional. In jazz, the freedom of interpreting the melody rhythmically (even in the unison melody part) is quite common.
Sorry is using midi like this isn't kosher. The tune is a vehicle to explore the "Mediantics" jazz improvisation style of Werner Poelert. Did you notice the lack of use of the chord roots in the solo?
As you know, many chords share common tones; G7, B dim, Dm7 etc. Poelerts style has you substitute up a third. The third of a chord is also known as its mediant, hence "mediantics". This gets you out of the box of playing in habitual patterns oriented around the root of the chord.
Poelerts substitution pattern can be summerized as follows;
For major chords, solo on the pentatonic form based on the third. Example: for C major7 chord, use E within its G pentatonic framework.
For minor chords, solo on the root.
For dominant 7 chords solo on the fifth or (for bluesy flatted sounds) the fourth. Example: G7, use D with in its F pentatonic pattern.
For half diminished (m7b5) solo on the third.
Diminished and other special cases you just have to spell out, they are outside this technique. Try this out and see if it doesn't "open up" your harmonic thinking. It is sure helping me think outside of the normal boxes and muscle-memory patterns I have developed over time.
64Firebird
New member
Hey Tom, I liked the the song! But, the bass seemed really loud on my system. I don't have good monitors, just some cheap altec Lansing's. I don't listen to a lot of jazz (just a little Miles Davis or Herbie Hancock once in a while), so maybe it's supposed to sound that way.
wfaraoni
ear art's not a science
Very nice playing, where can I get some more examples of this technique. Ive been stuck in the maj., pent and harmonic minor boxes for EVER. Maybe move the major around and get some modes once in while but not often enough.
Your playing definitely gets you out of those boxes in a wonderful way! So point me in the student direction. Ill try what youve already posted but dont stop there!
Cowtown Eh!
Not very far away from lewisville, Hmmm
As far as the mix the Guitar sounds nice and jazzy theres a few places the keyboard doesnt hit a home run like around :10, 35, 3:30, 3:40. The bass is a little too boomy, and loud in the mix on my monitors.
lets get some more stars up there for this
I hope to hear more from you
Peace
Bill
Your playing definitely gets you out of those boxes in a wonderful way! So point me in the student direction. Ill try what youve already posted but dont stop there!
Cowtown Eh!
Not very far away from lewisville, Hmmm
As far as the mix the Guitar sounds nice and jazzy theres a few places the keyboard doesnt hit a home run like around :10, 35, 3:30, 3:40. The bass is a little too boomy, and loud in the mix on my monitors.
lets get some more stars up there for this
I hope to hear more from you
Peace
Bill
AlChuck
Well-known member
It might have been intentional but it sounds like neither of you are listening to the other, it sounds out of whack in a bad way.
The guitar solo sounds like you have not really absorbed the technique you were playing with -- sounds very boxy and exercise-y. I'm a little puzzled why you would want to post a practice session like this...
wfaraoni
ear art's not a science
Alchuck,Yeah right, how can you say that! I respect your opinion but feel that Toms expression here on the Solo is very,very well done. Though there may be a latency problem with the keyboad. This a very nice piece of solo work.
I only wish I could be that boxy and exercise-y in my jazz guitar playing and phrasing.
Tom,Ive been listening to Jazz for some 35 years and I DO Get it.
Once again Tom Nice job
Peace
Bill
I only wish I could be that boxy and exercise-y in my jazz guitar playing and phrasing.
Tom,Ive been listening to Jazz for some 35 years and I DO Get it.
Once again Tom Nice job
Peace
Bill
jake-owa
Banned
The bass is a tad loud and the lead guitar is a bit energy heavy in the low mids. I know you are going for that warm round jazz sound but it's a bit too round this time.
I thought the use of MIDI was fine on this, not overdone at all.
This type of music is not my cup of tea but not bad by any means, very listenable.
I thought the use of MIDI was fine on this, not overdone at all.
This type of music is not my cup of tea but not bad by any means, very listenable.
Tom Hicks
Well-known member
Thank you guys for the feedback!
I am a "work in progress" for sure, and only hope to make myself a better player.
This technique is part of what is known as the "reed style" of guitar playing (first brought forward by Charlie Christian), where you try to emulate the way horn players organise their improvs.
I accept the different reactions in the spirit they are given and thank you all for spending some of your valuable time trying to help me out.
I am a "work in progress" for sure, and only hope to make myself a better player.
This technique is part of what is known as the "reed style" of guitar playing (first brought forward by Charlie Christian), where you try to emulate the way horn players organise their improvs.
I accept the different reactions in the spirit they are given and thank you all for spending some of your valuable time trying to help me out.
flat-9
New member
Tom Hicks said:
I'd like to here you play this tune after you trascribed and played along w/5 horn solos of it. Charlie Parker, Chet Baker, Sonny Stitt, Coltrain, and Miles.
There are many ways to manipulate diatonic, altered and symetrical diminished scales in a traditional fashion that would allow you 'out of the box'.
Poelerts methods are interesting but must be thoroughly mastered so that the ' triggers 'are inate. Without this kind of mindless playing , the resulting improvisation could tend to sound restrained.
You are doing a nice job in your development of this technique in the guitar work.
I don't like the doubled lead at all. Yes, jazz is supposed to be free, but from a professional point of view, this simply does not work.
I wouldn't have walked the bass until the solo, it's also to way to out front in the mix.
Piano voicings need more tensions...b9, 9 #9. 11, #11, b13 and 13. Comping is in need of the Steve Gad Rule..."Less is best" & could be less legato and more staccato.
Drums need serious attention. Fills and snare/cymbal accents are greatly needed.
Good luck in your studies. Your guitar work is indeed cool!
peace,
Ralph
Tom Hicks
Well-known member
Thanks Ralph
I come from a rock background but have listened to a good bit of jazz. Somehow, the older preening rockers lack a certain dignity I see in jazz and classical and other forms of music with older players. So, if it isn't too late for an old dog to learn a few new tricks, I am trying to learn the vocabulary by speaking it. Thanks for the comments and tips.
I come from a rock background but have listened to a good bit of jazz. Somehow, the older preening rockers lack a certain dignity I see in jazz and classical and other forms of music with older players. So, if it isn't too late for an old dog to learn a few new tricks, I am trying to learn the vocabulary by speaking it. Thanks for the comments and tips.