Mixing Symetry?

[djdarwin]

How symetrical do you guys try and keep your mixes?

Kick, Snare, Bass are smack in the middle but where do you put the High Hats?

You have a strong lead sound and just one other counter melody. Say a huge saw wave and a small piano. Is it ok to leave the saw right in the middle and move the Piano to one side ONLY so that it stands out more? Or should you double up the piano and put one on each side?

When panning should you pan things as far out as possible or leave them as close to the center as possible?

If you have 4 string parts and 4 piano parts all playing in the mid frequency should you spread them equally apart from eachother and should you start with one all the way left and one all the way right?

is perfect symetry the optimal situation?

 

[LemonTree]

pan, EQ & reverb.....

imagine the band on the stage

pan: where the instruments sit on the stage. from left to right

eq: top to bottom in your 3D picture. Bass at the bottom, cymbals at the top

reverb: distance on the stage from front to back....more verb at the back, less for the up front singer


3 simple rules to a good mix although they are not set in stone

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Yeah, what Lemon Tree said ^^^^^^^^^^ .

As far as the symmetry, for me it depends upon the song just how I decide to lay out the soundstage.

I would like to say that there is a difference between "symmetry" and "balance". It's kind of a fine point, but it's an important one, I think.

For me, rarely do I look for symmetry. If there are two guitars I do not automatically want to put them both to equal sides of the center line, for example. I may wind up with one at 40%L and the other at 20%R, or maybe even both to the same side. Backing vocals may be off-center or all to one side to some degree, etc. It all depends on what else is going on in the mix. In that respect you might say that the mix is asymmetrical.

However, I far more often than not do indeed strive for balance, which is something different. I might have the guitars asymmetrical, but when you combine them with a similar asymmetry in the keyboards, backing vocals, horns, rooster crows, or whatever else may be in the mix, the overall mix comes out balanced (as lemon alluded to) in overall L/R pan, frequency spread and population, and mix depth.

But again, for me all this is contingent upon the feel and arrangement of the song. I have heard (and done) some mixes that were both asymmetrical and quite unbalanced in the conventional sense. But that is more the exception than the rule, I think.

G.

 

[chessrock]

Whatever the fuck sounds good.

 

[djdarwin]

Thanks SS Glen. Think for rap and hip hop the same principles apply?

Is there anyreason why the main vocals wouldnt be in the center?

What if you double the main vocals and put on at L-20% and the other at R-20%? Does that achieve the same middle up front sound like most suggest?

Is it a good idea to split the vocals like that and then stick your lead or main mid sound right in the middle?

If all your instruments are in different freq ranges and properly EQed could you potentially place them all dead center and still have a great mix or does this strategy take away from the final product?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Think for rap and hip hop the same principles apply?

Personally, I don't see a difference in this regard between hip hop and other genres. In the past, hip hop mixes did tend to be a bit simpler and more symmetrical in many ways, but that is really evolving and many hop productions today are becoming much more sophistaced and textured. Take a listen to the "Fishscale" CD from Ghostface Killah for a prime example of where state-of-the-art hip hop production is heading these days.

Is there anyreason why the main vocals wouldnt be in the center?

Oh sure. While lead vocals are more often than not placed on or near the centerline, this is not something that's set in stone. In a hip hop mix, there may be an arrangement with heavy call-and-response between two vocalists or between a single vocalist and an up front beat or scratch track, in which case you might be tempted to balance them across the centerline. That second example would be an example where there is not symmetry in the vocals but there is balance inthe mix. There are other possibilities and examples, where the vocal may not necessarily be right up the middle.

What if you double the main vocals and put on at L-20% and the other at R-20%? Does that achieve the same middle up front sound like most suggest?

If you are doubling the exact same track with no differet processing applied to them, that will create a "ghost mono" image up the middle. This image may mor may not be "up front" depending on what else is going on and the character of the doubled tracks themself. But for me anyway, if you want "up front", don't mess around; just throw the vocal up front . YMMV.

Is it a good idea to split the vocals like that and then stick your lead or main mid sound right in the middle?

It's not a good idea or a bad idea; it's an option to try out and see if it works . It may be just the way to go on one song, but inappropriate on another. Keep it as a technique in your tool box, and try it out once in a while. Use it when it works, put it back in the box when it doesn't.

If all your instruments are in different freq ranges and properly EQed could you potentially place them all dead center and still have a great mix or does this strategy take away from the final product?

It's possible. Hell, back in the 60s, producers like Barry Gordy and Phil Spector used to create *massive* sounding mixes in mono.

But it's not something I'd recommend doing these days on a regualr basis, if at all. It's just imposing a handicap on your production. Having a stereo or surround canvas to play with just opens up so many more possibilities for hooking the listener and creating interest in the mix, that IMHO, it'd be silly not to use it to the fullest.

IMHO YMMV NWA ETC

G.

 

[Dumby]

pan, EQ & reverb.....

imagine the band on the stage

pan: where the instruments sit on the stage. from left to right

eq: top to bottom in your 3D picture. Bass at the bottom, cymbals at the top

reverb: distance on the stage from front to back....more verb at the back, less for the up front singer


3 simple rules to a good mix although they are not set in stone

I could have used an explanation this clear when I started out a couple years ago. Well said

 

[Robert D]

First, I think we all need to pitch in and buy Chessrock a hooker.
On the symmetry question, what Chess said..... without the old yeller in the shed foaming at the mouth about to be shot dead to protect the kids bit.

It's really about the genre, and the psycho-acoustical intent.

 

[djdarwin]

Thanks SSglen...

I dont know how the "Rep Power" thing works but id like to give you some credit if i could.

 

[blueroommusic]

he doesn't need any more rep power... once I chop off his head, aside from getting all his brute power and knowledge, I also get his beloved rep points...even though rep points are still gay

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

id like to give you some credit if i could.

I'd much prefer cash . But thanks for the thoughts .

BRM, as far as your quest to gain all of my knowledge and power a la clan MacCloud in a bad Canadian TV series, I'll tell you the same thing that Mick Jagger would:

Hey, MacCloud, get off of my ewe!

Besides, you want my swag, there's a much easier way: I'd much prefer cash.

G.

 

[chessrock]

Southside is basically a "cut-and-paste" Encyclopedia. Any/every opportunity he sees to self-promote himself and look smarter than everyone else ... he takes in a heartbeat.

Typical Southside reply: I am Southside Glen. And I am smart. If you don't believe me, here is a term paper on the question you just asked. Notice how thorough, accurate and well-worded it is. I am so smart, I think I'm going to go make out with myself.

.

 

[RAK]

Whatever the fuck sounds good.

I generally don't like to swear, but I agree with the sentament.

Look at all us Chicago guys posting away, it's like one big happy family.

 

[peopleperson]

Whatever the fuck sounds good.

I definately second this. The fact that everyone does everything the same way is a big reason why music sucks so bad these days.

Just my opinion.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Southside is basically a "cut-and-paste" Encyclopedia. Any/every opportunity he sees to self-promote himself and look smarter than everyone else ... he takes in a heartbeat.

Typical Southside reply: I am Southside Glen. And I am smart. If you don't believe me, here is a term paper on the question you just asked. Notice how thorough, accurate and well-worded it is. I am so smart, I think I'm going to go make out with myself.

.

It beats the typical chessrock reply:

"Fuck you asswipe."

which translates as

"My name is chessrock, and because I can't get a woman and my mother hates me, I have this ginormous cow chip on my shoulder that makes me want to take my sociopathic frustrations out on everybody else.

I"'m actually not that bad of a guy, I only hate two kinds of people; those who are dumber than me and those who are smarter than me."

Chess if you can't get over the fact that there's someone who actually knows their shit and answers questions properly without being an asshole about it - a rarity on the Internet, I know - then just fucking leave.

G.

 

[chessrock]

Southside, I'm only rude to people who deserve it. Either because they're lazy, and expect someone else on a message board to hand out answers and do all of their research for them ... or because they're just clogging up our attempts at intelligent discussions with misinformation, spam, or redundant posts (i.e. what the best rap mic is for $100).

And meanwhile, guys like you feed these slackers by just handing out answers. Old geezers like you and I grew up during a time when we had to actually get our hands dirty if we wanted to learn something. I hate to say it, but the kids on these boards, by and large, expect quick and easy answers. And guys like you, Southside, just go and feed them and contribute to their "gimme' a quick answer, and if I don't like it I'm going to cry" mentality.

And I sometimes wonder if you do it because maybe you feel like it's your duty to just give quick answers in a flash to anyone who needs it. Or if it's because you're the guy in class who always had to have his hand up in the air first, giving the textbook answer to every single question ... just so you can be the smart guy. Either way, it's just obnoxious. It's one thing to be helpful, but it's quite another to just be a know-it-all windbag who has to have an answer for every fucking thing.
.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Don't kid yourself by trying to rationalize off your rudeness to everybody who isn't you.

You only see what you want to see in my posts. I have been called plenty of names on this board for calling people to the carpet for their stupid posts; most of them worst than anything you have called me. But I don't make a fucking sport out of seeing just how rude I can be or how idiotic my answers can be just because I don't like humanity.

Have you ever considered that there are many reasons why I do what I do, none of them anywhere near the braniac egotism that you claim? Not the least are; to keep in practice mentally on the subject and to pick up new things (I have learned more from this board than I have given back, BTW, I'm just trying to do my part), to cut down on the goddamn noise in this field and on the internet in general - there is so much bullshit floating around because any maroon with a modem and a keyboard thinks they have the right to state their half-baked opinion as factual truth, and the fact that the more people who can get the straight dope, the better of a chance that someday the drek that's being pumped out as music these days will actually come back in quality again.

Chess, it's this board's worst-kept secret that you burnt out on this board and its incessant noobishness a long time ago, you just can't handle it any more. Every time you log on to this forum and look at the choices, you ask yourself, "What the fuck am I dong back here again?" Yet you can't seem to break away. This board has become your Internet heroin, and that pisses you off even more, and that anger is refelected in 95% of your posts.

Shit or get off the pot, Chess. If you're not going to just plain relax, then either suck it up and go cold turkey, or find some form of methodone to replace this board for you in your life. Because when you get to the point where you're complaining that someone's answers are too good and too plentiful, you got some real Columbine stuff going on between your ears.

G.

 

[mshilarious]

I love this board

 

[littledog]

I think it is kind of an interesting question, although probably not as interesting as the back alley brawl...

I would say that there is some value to having some balance of the overall volume on a mix between the left and right meters, unless you are going for some sort of special effect.

While this doesn't mean you have to practice perfect symmetry, there have developed some general "standards" of stereo mixing over time. Remember the early days of stereo when all the drums were panned hard left, and all the vocals hard right - or some other equally odd configuration. We have come to expect at least a certain amount of symmetry on an instinctive level, and the average listener is somewhat discomforted when the mix leans too hard in either direction.

Even the long used "stage" analogy can break down. I've recorded live concerts where the featured soloist, say a sax, was standing far stage right. If I were to just reproduce the reality, all the solos would be coming out of the left speaker, which can frankly get annoying after a while. So I'll cheat and put the sax closer to the middle.

While I don't mix by watching meters, my ears tend to keep the left and right sides reasonably balanced. If I'm panning a tambourine to the left, I'll often put a shaker on the right. If the piano is a little left, maybe the acoustic guitar will be a little right. In the end result, the meter levels will stay more or less in sync with each other.

Sure, rules are made to be broken, and yes, what sounds good is all that matters. But "what sounds good" to a lot of people in a lot of musical styles is at least a certain amount of symmetry.

 

[true-eurt]

I love this board

I was seriously considering, getting serious myself and making some worthwhile post....I have been lurking around these parts more and more lately......now I am afraid ....hold me.