Mixing is HARD!

diggy_dude said:
This is from a total n00b, so take it with a grain of salt.

Don't use "the room" to mix. Use headphones to mix, then use the room (and several other rooms) to audition the results.
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This is coming from a vet. Yet I am none the less a home rec'er, so take it with a grain of salt.

Use speakers to mix. Use headphones for picky edits. You're producing something that will be played back on a variety of equipment in a variety of listening spaces. Headphones alter your entire head transfer function, and different 'phones probably alter it in different ways. The best way to make something "universal" is to mix with your good 'ol natural "open air" head transfer function. Just be aware that the end user's space will add its own nuances and coloration as well, so your room better be accurate.
 
grimtraveller said:
You tell newcomers it'll take them 10,000 hours or six years to get good at this and there's likely to be a whole load of used gear flooding the market ! ;)
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Alright, numbers might be useless. But let's not sugar coat this. It will take on the order of years to hit your stride. Personally, I'd rather know that going in than spend money and wonder why I still suck 16 months later.

It's not a case of "Stay away, foolish mortal! This entry barrier will slay you!"
It's more a case of "Hey, no sweat. We all sucked at your stage in the game."
 
Todzilla said:
Here's an example of a recent mix that I struggled with:



I've mixed and remixed this so many times, I think I'm done. But man, it was killing me to get the best, or rather the "least bad" mix.
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The mix comes together more when the vocals come up and are pushed back into the mix. I think the quiet vox need some effects to put them back in the mix. If your intent was to have the quiet vox have more presence than the rest I think you can accomplish that and follow my suggestion at the same time. Also I'm old school but I'd personally like the music pumped up and thumping more...just my opinion. There is nothing wrong with the mix generally. My suggestions are personal preference and more about levels and perhaps placement in the mix.
 
Chibi Nappa said:
This is coming from a vet. Yet I am none the less a home rec'er, so take it with a grain of salt.

Use speakers to mix. Use headphones for picky edits. You're producing something that will be played back on a variety of equipment in a variety of listening spaces. Headphones alter your entire head transfer function, and different 'phones probably alter it in different ways. The best way to make something "universal" is to mix with your good 'ol natural "open air" head transfer function. Just be aware that the end user's space will add its own nuances and coloration as well, so your room better be accurate.
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This. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Headphones are a useful tool, but not the main tool. I've done plenty of headphone mixes that got made way better through using monitors.
 
Todzilla said:
Here's an example of a recent mix that I struggled with:



I've mixed and remixed this so many times, I think I'm done. But man, it was killing me to get the best, or rather the "least bad" mix.
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I'm noticing 2 main things:
You've got a bad case of Karaoke Effect going on there. The vocals and "everything else" seem to be two independent entities.

You need way more contrast (aside from the vocal/instrument contrast which you have too much of). The mix feels timid, like you went at it with an ear for making sure everything is heard clearly instead of an ear for what is "in charge". It's too even-keeled. Let something jump out way more than the rest. Especially from section to section. It sounds like the chorus has the potential to be something different than the verse...but it isn't.
 
Chibi Nappa said:
This is coming from a vet. Yet I am none the less a home rec'er, so take it with a grain of salt.

Use speakers to mix. Use headphones for picky edits. You're producing something that will be played back on a variety of equipment in a variety of listening spaces. Headphones alter your entire head transfer function, and different 'phones probably alter it in different ways. The best way to make something "universal" is to mix with your good 'ol natural "open air" head transfer function. Just be aware that the end user's space will add its own nuances and coloration as well, so your room better be accurate.
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My room is far from "accurate", which I presume means "neutral". It's an untreated bedroom in a 1950s tract house with hardwood floors. Fortunately 99% of my sounds come from electronic instruments plugged into the mixer, so I don't have to worry overly about the room acoustics showing up on a recording, at least during tracking anyway.

So my question is, if I mix these more or less uncolored tracks in my "colorful" room (using a set of quality vintage British stereo speakers vs. whatever cheap Chinese-made near field monitors I might be able to afford, no less), what are some steps I can take to ensure I'm hearing what's on the tape instead of hearing the room? Or does it really matter, since the speakers already sound good in that room? Can I simply equalize the stereo with the aid of a pink noise generator and spectrum analyzer and be golden?
 
diggy_dude said:
what are some steps I can take to ensure I'm hearing what's on the tape instead of hearing the room?
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If the room is rectangular, set up your mix location in the center of one of the short walls. Go for maximum left/right symmetry in the room with regard to the mix position. Keep a couple of feet free on all sides of the speakers including behind. Put large bookshelves in the corners full of large books if you cannot afford broadband traps for the time being.

Can I simply equalize the stereo with the aid of a pink noise generator and spectrum analyzer and be golden?
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The reasoning is way to much to cover in a post, but no.
 
Chibi Nappa said:
If the room is rectangular, set up your mix location in the center of one of the short walls. Go for maximum left/right symmetry in the room with regard to the mix position. Keep a couple of feet free on all sides of the speakers including behind. Put large bookshelves in the corners full of large books if you cannot afford broadband traps for the time being.
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It's not perfectly rectangular. The shortest unbroken (other than a closet door) wall has a nook in it for the door to the hallway. I have the speakers there now. It's not a symmetrical arrangement because of the nook. The right speaker is farther from the wall to the right than the left speaker is from the wall to the left.

I agree that KEF's recommendation of putting the speakers in the corners isn't a good one. Their reasoning was that it improves bass response. I don't like having my bass accentuated that way, personally. In my old apartment, they were on a ledge overlooking the stairwell, with the entire stairwell behind them. They sounded awesome there. Very clean and neutral.

The wall opposite that one has a window in the far left end but is otherwise continuous. If I put the speakers there, the nook in the opposite wall would prohibit placing a bass trap or substitute treatment (e.g., a bookshelf) in that corner, as it would block the door to the hallway.

Chibi Nappa said:
The reasoning is way to much to cover in a post, but no.
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Does it have to do with reflections from surfaces in the room?
 
Mixing's not hard. You ever have a man die in your arms? You ever kill somebody? Don't talk to me about hard sonny boy.
 
Todzilla said:
...and DAWs have, in a weird way, encourage it to be a lot harder (by indulging overtracking, undercommitting and over-reliance on mix fixes).

I'm a one man shop, from song writing to arranging to playing/singing to mixing down. I know it's not realistic to expect fantastic results without relying on dedicated professionals at each of the aforementioned steps, but I have to say, of all the steps involved in making music, mixing is the hardest for me.

I think I'm okay at it, but the ability to hear sounds as they're tracked and accommodate their capture, knowing how the individual tracks will aggregate in a mix is just an elusive, mysterious art.

Maybe recognizing one's weaknesses is the first step to overcoming them, but I continue to mix, remix, sometimes overmix the life out of a song, then repeat furiously with different listens on car stereo, ipod, home stereo, computer speakers.

I'm afraid I'm just going to cycle through my 14 songs for my CD until I get to the point where diminishing returns meets getting sick of it all, then hope the mastering process can make up for gaps.

Am I cynical?
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Mixing IS hard. Based on what you've written here, the best advice I can give you is to try mixing faster. Speed is critical in mixing, because if you don't mix fast, you risk becoming lost and confused. You also risk pulling the life out of the track, which is what you're experiencing here.

The same can be said about referencing your mixes all over kingdom come, on systems that you may or may not be sufficiently familiar with. Even a familiar outside reference can be confusing. I would suggest you limit your outside reference to one place, and make sure it's a place that you're familiar with, and keep your decisions within the context of your mix space and that one reference space.

Mixing aggressively also means working fast and furiously towards completing the mix. If you're mixing over the course of days or weeks, and you're not sitting down and working on the mix start to finish, you're actually making the process much more difficult because the mix is never actually done. If you force yourself to sit down and mix the song, and if you can the song to cause the right physical reaction, and make you want to sing it, then you've got a good mix.

Mixing is a dual brained process. Half of it is left brain detail oriented thinking, and half of it is right brain big picture thinking. Based on your description above, you're working from your left brain far more than from your right. You MUST be vigilant about evaluating the big picture. How does the track affect you physically? If you pull yourself out of the left brain and force yourself to listen to the whole rather than the sum of it's parts, you will have a much easier time completing a mix. And once you complete it, leave it! Don't keep going back and fixing things endlessly. This takes immense discipline on a DAW because it's way too easy to bring the mix up exactly as it was before. Especially if there's no analog gear anywhere in the path.

Another reason to mix fast is it prevents you from making an overly balanced mix, which is basically a boring mix. An early decision to put some instrument obnoxiously loud can be a good decision, and the over-sifting process will eventually eradicate a decision that brought something good to the track.

Enjoy,

Mixerman
 
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