Mixing in mono.

[miroslav]

I didn't say that though I'm definitely not an advocate of 'giving up' on panning, that's absurd. Perhaps I didn't make it clear what I meant there. Using the word 'compatability' was perhaps a mistake.

I was just going by what you said about compatibility taking precedence over panning.

Using mono to set up your mix before you go to stereo, is nothing unusual, and if you like working that way, then stick with it....however, I don't see that as any guarantee. I mean...if that was some sort of absolute, then everyone would be doing it...first mono then stereo.

I also don't agree that a mix, set up in mono, will just pan out, and it sounds great, and you're done.
Every move triggers a reaction. So going from mono with everything stacked up the center...and then panning out to a full stereo stage...is like night and day AFA how it sounds and what it needs.
Lowering a track in mono to make it sit right in the mono mix, will not sound the same when panned out.
OK, maybe you like what happens to the sound when you do that...I'm just saying the level balances are going to be different, processing will be different, FX will be different...etc.
Yes...monitoring in mono will accentuate certain things, and that can make you aware of issues or certain imbalances...but it's not some trick that makes everything sound better....IMO, YMMV.

So we come back to the real point.
Who are you mixing for...?...the odd listener who happens to hear it in mono or the bulk of listeners who will hear it in stereo? Not to mention, if it's your stuff, you would want to first please yourself in your production goals, I would think...and if you want to hear a mix a certain way, that IMO takes precedence over worrying about the many, many listening environment that exist, and trying to deliver equally to all.
There are only some mixes that can *equally* straddle a mono or stereo image and sound deliver and equally good listening experience. It's not just a twist of the pan knob...IMO.

Anyway...it's a good discussion, and it makes sense that people try out different approaches in their mixing, if for no other reason, simply to discover new possibilities and ways of listening to their mixes.

If you get around to it...post up some A/B...just so we can hear what you've been hearing with mono VS stereo.

 

[Jake_JW]

Who are you mixing for...?...the odd listener who happens to hear it in mono or the bulk of listeners who will hear it in stereo?

It reall comes down to that - as ashcat_lt said, people with headphones, people listening on their computer, in the car, on a PA somewhere are all going to need something slightly different (or drastically).
I guess I see mono as the lowest possible common denominator between them all.

Having said I have been mixing in mono for quite a while - there was one project recently that really didn't work that way, a prog track with plenty in the way of delay and modulation effects on some of the guitar parts that I just couldn't get to sit in mono, but popped right into place in stereo. Didn't wreck the balance either, I just needed to hear the full effect (it was pretty integral to the sound of the track) to get things right.

 

[miroslav]

It reall comes down to that - as ashcat_lt said, people with headphones, people listening on their computer, in the car, on a PA somewhere are all going to need something slightly different (or drastically).
I guess I see mono as the lowest possible common denominator between them all.

OK...I agree that people are listening on a variety of systems...but they are stereo systems for the most part.
That's what I'm saying. I'm not seeing where or for whom you think you need the mono compatibility...?

That aside...there is NO possible way to mix "equally" for a variety of stereo listening systems (never mind adding in the rare mono system). People try all kinds of things...using multiple monitors...out to the car...try it on a boom box...
...but in the end, that just leaves you "chasing the mix".

People get upset about their mix sounding great in their studio...then they go out to a car, and their expectations are not met...but the reality is you can take a top commercial mix, listen to it on multiple systems, and it WILL sound different on each.

The best option is 1.) have a decent studio listening environment, and a neutral monitor system that is flat and reveals everything...and then 2.) just do your mix how you want it to sound on that one tried-n-true system.
The difference that come as your mix is played on other systems are going to happen anyway...at least that's my opinion.

 

[miroslav]

Oh...wanted to mention one thing I do differently, or in addition to, these days, compared to years back that has a mono aspect to it...is to push the low frequencies toward the center.
Back when I was using mostly analog outboard fro processing, I didn't really have any gear that made the easy to do.
With many of the digital plugs, the ability to separate your stereo mix frequencies (and for tracks to) and then pan the low-end to the middle while leaving the rest out wider...has a big impact on the stereo image. So it's kinda mono processing that helps the stereo image.
The a single digital plug provides a lot of options that were not easy to do in the analog domain without a bunch of gear.
Yeah, it's a crossover into mastering techniques...but still, very helpful even for mixing.

 

[RFR]

One thing in mixing that is very important to me are reference tracks. A "gold standard", if you will. Since ALL systems sound different, ALL rooms sound different, ALL monitors sound different, etc etc, something you can trust is important. There lies the beauty of a reference track. You can trust that over all else.

You pick something you like the sound of and try to emulate that.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Most of the time that most people are listening to music, there may be two (or more) speakers doing different things, but they aren't actually getting the "true stereo image" at the listening position. Rather, they get some mix of the two speakers and yes sometimes that mix is different in each ear, so there is some "stereoness" to it, but it's still not what your get from the "sweet spot" in the studio let alone what you might hear on headphones. That's normal an ok. It's also pretty normal for that playback system to be all wonky in the frequency spectrum - either band limited by speaker size and configuration or smiley-faced with the EQ/Tone controls. Worse yet, a lot of shit nowadays has "surround" or some other phase-based stereo enhancement. There's not good way to account for all of these things, and you'd be silly to try to make your thing sound great in every possible situation.

You can, however, do some fairly simple things to give it the best chance possible to not completely fall apart in less than ideal conditions. A good mix might not blow you away coming through a clock radio, but it will be recognizable and still get its point across.

It seems to me like mono-comparability is the a pretty solid way to get there. If it sounds good collapsed to mono, then it has a pretty strong chance of sounding good in that not-quite-stereo, essentially random mix of left-right channels that we get in the real world. To an extent my idea is to reward people (really myself) when they listen in the sweet spot on a decent system, but not to punish them when they don't.

 

[RFR]

No one except people like us actually listen to music in the "sweet spot".

Even with earbuds, I'll see people with only one on. Sometimes kids are sharing, sometimes people are wanting to hear what's going on around them, and sometimes it's the law...as in while driving.

The only time I've seen people with both in the ears is at coffee shops and people jogging.

 

[miroslav]

While I certainly don't consider myself some top-level artists...
I think that the point of art is to get people to see/hear YOUR artistic vision (there's a corny phrase), rather then you the artist trying to *accommodate* the audience in all it's fickle and sophomoric ways of appreciating art.

I mean...will they be jogging or talking or doing the dishes...or listening with intensity?
Will the level be loud enough like you thought it should be when you mixed it or will they have it on too soft for them to hear all that great ear candy you added.
Will they bother to take not of the lyrics you spent hours working on, or will they just pick up on the couple of key phrases and just hum the rest....etc...etc..etc.

Mix it like YOU want it to sound...and let the rest of the world figure it out any way they want.
If you are lucky, a few will actually hear it like you heard it.

 

[RFR]

I think that the point of art is to get people to see/hear YOUR artistic vision (there's a corny phrase), rather then you the artist trying to *accommodate* the audience in all it's fickle and sophomoric ways of appreciating art.



Mix it like YOU want it to sound...and let the rest of the world figure it out any way they want.
If you are lucky, a few will actually hear it like you heard it.

I agree with both if these statements. Other stuff too. But these 2 carry weight for me.

It is the money behind the music that has created the philosophy of "catering" to the consumer.

Artist are trying to second guess what the public wants and give it to them in hopes of being accepted and rewarded with coin.

Fuck the public, fuck the status quo, fuck the accepted rules.

An artist is supposed to try and take people to another world out of the boundaries of the mundane pop fueled, lowest common denominator scene.

I have always had the theory that if I like something, out of the billions on this planet, there would have to be 100, 000 to a million others that shared my affinity.

The trick is to find them

 

[Jake_JW]

It is the money behind the music that has created the philosophy of "catering" to the consumer.

Replace 'consumer' with 'audience' and I'd be inclined to agree with you to some extent. Making mixes for people to listen to and enjoy is the whole point for me, though. It could be telling that I don't write much/any of my own music anymore - my work is very rarely for myself.

For me mixing (not writing/producing) is about getting the musical 'point' (/idea/concept/whatever wanky bollocks you want to call it) across as effectively as possible to as many people as possible without their terrible choice of speakers getting in the way - if I see someone enjoying something I have worked on on their laptop speakers or on their kitchen radio, I feel like I've done my job to some extent.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Fucking art fags!

If you've ever heard my music, I think you know that I'm not catering to anybody. I record this shit because I hate everything else. I upload this shit because I want to be able to hear it from wherever I am. I think about how it's going to sound on a reasonable variety of systems because I want it to sound halfway decent whenever and wherever I do listen to it. I suppose it's also good practice just in case somebody else ever makes the mistake of letting me mix their stuff. :/

 

[famous beagle]

I don't understand how you can (easily) find a 'space' for everything if you're doing it in mono.

I agree with Massive Master and have started doing this as well. I find that, if I can find space for everything to be heard in a mono mix, which is mainly a matter of EQ for me, then it'll sound that much better in stereo. In other words, sometimes panning can be used as a crutch and give the illusion of an instrument having its own space, but when you combine to mono, things aren't nearly as identifiable because you have frequency clashes.

And, sure, everyone listens to stereo now just about everywhere .. that's true. But if you listen to two speakers (not headphones) that are incredibly close together, as on an iPhone, iPad, or a small clock radio, etc., you're not going to hear much stereo spread at all. Obviously, I don't worry too much about how my music sounds over my HTC phone's loud speakers, but I do have a little clock in my bedroom with an aux in jack, and sometimes I listen to that. Those speakers are so close together, it may as well be a mono mix.

 

[GONZO-X]

you 'check' in mono....
you do not 'mix' in mono....

i don't know anybody that listens in mono.


and if there are a few folks out there that are listening to music in mono,
i'm sorry, but i mix my stuff to sound good in stereo.


LOL


you MUST check your mixes in mono,
because even when GREAT care is taken in regards to phase and eq,

when folded to MONO, any, almost ANY mix issue will glaringly appear, and it is easy to hear whether or not vocals, or featured instruments, are actually standing out or not, irregardless of panning.

 

[mjbphotos]

Almost every house PA system/speaker system (including restaurants and bars with background music, elevators, stores, etc) have mono playback systems.

 

[GONZO-X]

yes, of course.

 

[RFR]

Fucking art fags!

If you've ever heard my music, I think you know that I'm not catering to anybody. I record this shit because I hate everything else. I upload this shit because I want to be able to hear it from wherever I am. I think about how it's going to sound on a reasonable variety of systems because I want it to sound halfway decent whenever and wherever I do listen to it. I suppose it's also good practice just in case somebody else ever makes the mistake of letting me mix their stuff. :/

Haha! That's funny. :-D

All Art Fag BS aside, my console has a mono button that I actually use quite often. Overall mixing philosophy is: If it sounds good in mono, it will sound BETTER in stereo.

 

[miroslav]

... my console has a mono button that I actually use quite often.

Mono button shmutton...that's not much of a freak-out...hearing your mix in mono.
It takes real guts to press the Solo track button and hear what your tracks sound all naked and alone.
Like that NatGeo show..."Naked and Afraid".

I know a lot of guys who avoid it like the plague...they only want to hear how it all sounds together.
Now granted, you don't want to be making too many decision off a track solo...but there's lots of times when it's helpful for identifying issues of single tracks in a similar way that pressing mono on the whole mix can do.

 

[RFR]

Haha! I use the solo button too.

Sometimes for the hell if it I even push all of them.

Seriously, there are times when you hear something in the mix where the only thing to do is solo each track one by one till you find what's bugging you.

 

[mjbphotos]

Seriously, there are times when you hear something in the mix where the only thing to do is solo each track one by one till you find what's bugging you.

For sure that is true. I heard this 'thump' sound in a mix the other night, but could not see it in any of the track waveforms, so soloing a track a time eventually found it - must have been a pick hitting a pickup during a solo. Automated EQ on it - still could hear it a little when soloed, but in the mix it disappeared.

 

[rayc]

I used to have pre-planned stereo in my head when working to 4 track - it was an essential discipline with such a limited number of tracks - the need to sort out everything in advance to accommodate bouncing to max the tracks required it.
With a DAW or even multitrack, (more than 4 but more than 8 is better), tape it's no longer essential but also a little difficult to unlearn. I like mono so enjoy mixing in mono prior to panning.