Mixing Help- New Folk/Rock Album

whirlwindRA

whirlwindRA

Member
Hello everyone... I have been working with audio for a few years now, and this is my second album project that I've worked on. Both projects were for bands that I am a part of. The first band was Another Step Further in case you're curious. This new one is a bit different, with some Mumford and folk influence, and we're called A Palinode.

Anyway, I've been working on mixing the whole album since August and am very pleased with it so far. We are probably going to release it within the month. However, there are some things in the mix that continue to annoy me (it may just be me...). There's a mild degree of mastering applied already, but it's not the final product yet. I've attached a preview of the very last song, probably one of my most favorite moments of the album. It'd be great if you could give feedback regarding the individual instruments and the entire mix as a whole. While I'd like to make it as best as possible, I'm not in a position to tear the entire thing down and start over, as time is at a close here.

Thanks in advance! Let me know if you'd like to hear more!

Original upload:
[MP3]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54393172/BGC%20sample.mp3[/MP3]

Revised:
[MP3]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54393172/BGC%20test3.mp3[/MP3]

Revised 2:
[MP3]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54393172/BGC%20test6.mp3[/MP3]
 
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The violin feels like it's leaning too far right in the mix (and the left seems too light with only the acoustic occupying the space there).

The kick and snare sound mushy and don't quite punch through (I realize this isn't metal). You might be able to EQ the kick and snare for more presence. Listening again it sounds to me like there might be too much or the wrong reverb for the drums. It may be too much of a hall effect.

The bass guitar is lost somewhere in the mix, might be able to just fix that by bringing it up... (?)

Overall it sounds like things are captured well enough, just needs that fine tuning your ears are noticing is missing.
 
Pinky said:
The violin feels like it's leaning too far right in the mix (and the left seems too light with only the acoustic occupying the space there).

The kick and snare sound mushy and don't quite punch through (I realize this isn't metal). You might be able to EQ the kick and snare for more presence. Listening again it sounds to me like there might be too much or the wrong reverb for the drums. It may be too much of a hall effect.

The bass guitar is lost somewhere in the mix, might be able to just fix that by bringing it up... (?)

Overall it sounds like things are captured well enough, just needs that fine tuning your ears are noticing is missing.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for all the input! Are there any specific EQ ranges that need changing on the snare, kick, or bass? There's already a decent amount applied but I'm pretty sure it's not right. Part of it might be due to the snare mic being muddy in general.

Thanks for the reverb tip. I probably went a bit crazy with it... Should the reverb bus be quieter or just shorter?
 
Reverb - less and less (quieter and shorter). :) Some people like reverb, I tend to use it lightly. It can also be used for effect (mood) but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Notching EQ ranges is tricky business. I couldn't tell you specifically what could be done to bring the kick and bass up, other than try not to bring up the same set of frequencies for each. I'd also think that adding a little gain at about 1khz on the kick would give it a little definition, and bumping around 80hz would give it a little thump (I can hear the low end on the kick so this is less of a concern). The bass just doesn't sound like it's there at all. I would just increase it 3db across the board and see if it suddenly appears. Adjusting a snare's EQ can be tricky (I tend to play around with compression on a snare to bring up elements I want), but this might be another case of raising the snare 1 or 2db in the mix. Using the less drastic reverb might help the snare too.
 
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I made the changes you suggested. The violins have a bit more stereo balance, and the kick stands out a bit more, and reverb has been shortened and turned down for the drums. I tried to rebuild the snare EQ from scratch, but I ended up sticking with what I had previously. Unfortunately, I can't add much more compression since there is so much cymbal bleed in the snare mic. I forgot to get to the bass, but I'll hit that next. Thanks again!
 
Be prepared to tinker with the kick some more once you bring the bass guitar up in the mix, it still sounds a little mushy/muted and when the bass is brought up you're likely to have some competition for the same space and frequencies in the mix between the two. Did you use one or two mics for the kick?
 
I know what you mean, but I haven't experienced that so much with this mix compared to others. It's one mic on the kick.
 
whirlwindRA said:
It's one mic on the kick.
Click to expand...

It's hard to capture the kick's thump and clarity/defintion with only one mic. Usually people use a sub (lower) frequencies mic for the bottom end, and another standard instrument mic for the kick's higher frequencies. The placement of the high frequencies mic can vary, some even place it near the foot pedal to capture the impact/snap. Of course you don't need to be limited to just two mics.
 
Pinky said:
It's hard to capture the kick's thump and clarity/defintion with only one mic. Usually people use a sub (lower) frequencies mic for the bottom end, and another standard instrument mic for the kick's higher frequencies. The placement of the high frequencies mic can vary, some even place it near the foot pedal to capture the impact/snap. Of course you don't need to be limited to just two mics.
Click to expand...

I would think that could introduce all kinds of potential phase problems. I wasn't aware that most people use more than one mic on a kick.
 
Understanding Audio Phase and Correcting Issues - Blog - Universal Audio

Not sure how phasing. It would seem the mics used would be run into a mixer, then that would be sent to the recording interface. The distances between the mics and the source sound (kick drum surface) would be arbitrary enough phase would be a product of (bad) luck.

I've done multiple mics on a kick drum. Haven't seen this issue arise from it. Not sure what would trigger a phase situation with mono mics, especially if they were EQ'd/trimmed to favor their respective role in the process (one for low end, the other(s) for higher frequencies).
 
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I listened to the revised version. I thought it sounded pretty good.

I thought there were spots where the snare was having trouble coming through.

I thought the kick was a little on the "sterile" side. Too much of the low-midrange removed. It had that "bouncing basketball" sound.

The vocals were a bit far back in the mix. I noticed some bobbled notes. I didn't mind the heavy reverb on this too much, but I thought there was a little too much used on the lead vocal.
 
Hi There,

Just had a listen - great track by the way! - and wanted to add my tuppence worth if that's ok. Yes, the bass is missing but this could also be due to your monitoring environment so I'd be inclined to check that. The Drums are what are hurting your track here and I am not convinced that EQ'ing is going to solve the problem. To my ears it sounds like there is waaaaaay to much compression going on and it has squashed the life out of the dynamics. My humble suggestion would be to undo the compression on the drums, get the balance right between all the drums (which includes lowering the overheads a fair bit) and then simply applying a stereo compressor to them and experimenting a little. I think you'll find this will really change the 'tone' of the track and is a simple remedy to try out. This track (or genre specifically) doesn't need a 'snap' on the snare of gated sanre sound. There is a tendency out there to overdo compression on drums and whilst I understand this may be required in many genres, if you listen to your song there is no need in this case, every instrument needs to be complementary to the track.
Whilst you're experimenting with the stereo compression on your drums, there is one other technique you could try which will place the drums in their rightful place in the mix and that is to try some parallel compression on them. This will not only give a fatter sound but will bring them more to the front without them necessarily being louder. Again a simple remedy and only takes a few seconds to set up. Make sure you check your bass guitar and kick drum together to make sure they have their own space sonically.
The other thing you might want to look at though (if I may) there are some quite noticeable timing issues going on too which is making the track sound disjointed and messy in places. Individually the instruments are played well, but together they are not always in sync, this won't be helping your brain asses what needs to be done to enhance the track as it will be (or should be) focussing on the timing issues instead. Our brains, as complicated as they are, still function on a fairly basic level and anything which it expects to be in order, 'isn't', such as timing, will cloud any further decision making.
Don't sweat the kick drum too much, it's not a metal track or a trance anthem. Try the suggestion above regarding removing all the drum compression you have at the moment and experiment with a stereo compressor instead. I truely believe this will alter the track drastically.

Hope this helps
 
Sorry...me again :0)

Just had another listen to see if I can help in any other way. One other issue which might help is that of panning. If you think of the Pan Pot on a mixer as a clock - panning say from 7 o'clock to 5 o'clock - there is quite a bit of space which hasn't been used yet which would also help. To my ears (and everyone is different) the whole mix seems to concentrate around the 9/10 to 2/3 o'clock if that makes sense? The vocals are wider but are 'exceeding' the rest of the track as a result. There is quite a bit of sonic space for you to play with yet which will also give the drums more space to breath and the other instruments can also occupy their own space. If you do this I believe you will end up EQ'ing a lot less too.
It might help you to pan the guitar further away from the drums, they are clashing a bit together in the stereo spread.
I don't know what other processing you have done on the drums (or whole mix with some mastering) but if you listen carefully, the centre image of the bass drum is moving around and sometimes I hear the kick in both headphones. I don't know if you have been experimenting with a stereo spreading plug in but if you have it is distorting the drums image.
I like what you have done with the vocals and the reverb is fine for that section. Do remember that you can (and often should) also pan and EQ reverb too. Reverb adds additional harmonics which might not suit the subject matter so try to experiment with that too. Nothing wrong with putting a mono reverb on a stereo source either if that is what is required to avoid a 'mushy' sound and pan away from the source.

Basically, my ears tell me that the space between 7 o'clock and 9 o'clock and between 3 o'clock and 5 o'clock hasn't been used yet. Try it, honestly it will open up the track enormously! The space has been occupied to a degree by reverb, and whilst that's ok in small doses, it doesn't have any substance. There is no law that says you can't or shouldn't use the entire 180 degree stereo sonic spectrum you have at your disposal to pan your tracks into their own space - that's why the pan pot goes from 7-5 o'clock. Don't forget, there are some quality mix engineers out there who mix solely using LCR (left, centre, right) techniques and these guys have Grammy's! So don't believe the hype :0)
(oh, and try a gentle tape emulator on the guitar or valve emulator, it is a little harsh and is borderline fighting with the cymbals)

I can't wait to hear the finished track though, I think it is great and I love the genre!

I'll shut up now as my comments can be misconstrued as 'lecturing' you which isn't my intention at all! Happy to help in any way I can though and would love to have a go at mixing the drums for you if you felt that would be of any help.

Thanks
 
Sorry...me again :0)

Just had another listen to see if I can help in any other way. One other issue which might help is that of panning. If you think of the Pan Pot on a mixer as a clock - panning say from 7 o'clock to 5 o'clock - there is quite a bit of space which hasn't been used yet which would also help. To my ears (and everyone is different) the whole mix seems to concentrate around the 9/10 to 2/3 o'clock if that makes sense? The vocals are wider but are 'exceeding' the rest of the track as a result. There is quite a bit of sonic space for you to play with yet which will also give the drums more space to breath and the other instruments can also occupy their own space. If you do this I believe you will end up EQ'ing a lot less too.
It might help you to pan the guitar further away from the drums, they are clashing a bit together in the stereo spread.
I don't know what other processing you have done on the drums (or whole mix with some mastering) but if you listen carefully, the centre image of the bass drum is moving around and sometimes I hear the kick in both headphones. I don't know if you have been experimenting with a stereo spreading plug in but if you have it is distorting the drums image.
I like what you have done with the vocals and the reverb is fine for that section. Do remember that you can (and often should) also pan and EQ reverb too. Reverb adds additional harmonics which might not suit the subject matter so try to experiment with that too. Nothing wrong with putting a mono reverb on a stereo source either if that is what is required to avoid a 'mushy' sound and pan away from the source.

Basically, my ears tell me that the space between 7 o'clock and 9 o'clock and between 3 o'clock and 5 o'clock hasn't been used yet. Try it, honestly it will open up the track enormously! The space has been occupied to a degree by reverb, and whilst that's ok in small doses, it doesn't have any substance. There is no law that says you can't or shouldn't use the entire 180 degree stereo sonic spectrum you have at your disposal to pan your tracks into their own space - that's why the pan pot goes from 7-5 o'clock. Don't forget, there are some quality mix engineers out there who mix solely using LCR (left, centre, right) techniques and these guys have Grammy's! So don't believe the hype :0)
(oh, and try a gentle tape emulator on the guitar or valve emulator, it is a little harsh and is borderline fighting with the cymbals)

I can't wait to hear the finished track though, I think it is great and I love the genre!

I'll shut up now as my comments can be misconstrued as 'lecturing' you which isn't my intention at all! Happy to help in any way I can though and would love to have a go at mixing the drums for you if you felt that would be of any help.

Thanks
 
Hi,
nice song, i prefer the revised version as it seems more "full".
It seems it lacks a bit of bass so it can give more punch and fill the middle of panning space.
Also in my opinion the voice could have more "in the face" impact and more present in the middle of the panning image. Maybe one duplicated voice track in the middle with a discret room reverb and open more the back vocals to the panning sides.
I think the snare sometimes sounds a bit overcompressed.
 
JDB said:
Sorry...me again :0)

Just had another listen to see if I can help in any other way. One other issue which might help is that of panning. If you think of the Pan Pot on a mixer as a clock - panning say from 7 o'clock to 5 o'clock - there is quite a bit of space which hasn't been used yet which would also help. To my ears (and everyone is different) the whole mix seems to concentrate around the 9/10 to 2/3 o'clock if that makes sense? The vocals are wider but are 'exceeding' the rest of the track as a result. There is quite a bit of sonic space for you to play with yet which will also give the drums more space to breath and the other instruments can also occupy their own space. If you do this I believe you will end up EQ'ing a lot less too.
It might help you to pan the guitar further away from the drums, they are clashing a bit together in the stereo spread.
I don't know what other processing you have done on the drums (or whole mix with some mastering) but if you listen carefully, the centre image of the bass drum is moving around and sometimes I hear the kick in both headphones. I don't know if you have been experimenting with a stereo spreading plug in but if you have it is distorting the drums image.
I like what you have done with the vocals and the reverb is fine for that section. Do remember that you can (and often should) also pan and EQ reverb too. Reverb adds additional harmonics which might not suit the subject matter so try to experiment with that too. Nothing wrong with putting a mono reverb on a stereo source either if that is what is required to avoid a 'mushy' sound and pan away from the source.

Basically, my ears tell me that the space between 7 o'clock and 9 o'clock and between 3 o'clock and 5 o'clock hasn't been used yet. Try it, honestly it will open up the track enormously! The space has been occupied to a degree by reverb, and whilst that's ok in small doses, it doesn't have any substance. There is no law that says you can't or shouldn't use the entire 180 degree stereo sonic spectrum you have at your disposal to pan your tracks into their own space - that's why the pan pot goes from 7-5 o'clock. Don't forget, there are some quality mix engineers out there who mix solely using LCR (left, centre, right) techniques and these guys have Grammy's! So don't believe the hype :0)
(oh, and try a gentle tape emulator on the guitar or valve emulator, it is a little harsh and is borderline fighting with the cymbals)

I can't wait to hear the finished track though, I think it is great and I love the genre!

I'll shut up now as my comments can be misconstrued as 'lecturing' you which isn't my intention at all! Happy to help in any way I can though and would love to have a go at mixing the drums for you if you felt that would be of any help.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for all your great feedback! It means a lot! Doesn't sound like lecturing at all.

I never really thought about the unused space. I guess I'm too used to working with rock and having the rhythm guitars hard panned, but there's nothing like that in this genre to fill that space. I'll definitely move the vocals out there and make the guitar a bit wider, but I don't know what else I should move out there.

As far as drums go, I've tried to follow your advice. I removed compression from bass and snare, and wow! It wasn't even that much to begin with, but it was totally squashing the sound. It sounds completely different and I didn't need to touch any eq. However, I am at a loss for what to do with it now, unless it's fine as is. Even though the snare sounds better now, it sounds dry in my opinion, although that could be because I'm used to hearing it with excessive reverb. I also turned on the gate for the snare, I had it off originally because there were a lot of quiet snare hits that were too soft to have the threshold at a reasonable level, but I figure it's best to keep the cymbals out of the snare track. I'm going to experiment with the stereo compression when I have more time.

I know what you mean with the kick moving around, I just assumed it was getting drowned out and I was hearing the resulting stereo reverb. It's definitely not a good thing, but I don't know how to fix it.

I'm surprised you were able to pick out the electric guitars. I'll give that a try.

fakas said:
Hi,
nice song, i prefer the revised version as it seems more "full".
It seems it lacks a bit of bass so it can give more punch and fill the middle of panning space.
Also in my opinion the voice could have more "in the face" impact and more present in the middle of the panning image. Maybe one duplicated voice track in the middle with a discret room reverb and open more the back vocals to the panning sides.
I think the snare sometimes sounds a bit overcompressed.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I moved the vocals out more, although they don't sound quite as blended. I'll definitely consider tweaking the lead vocals.

TripleM said:
I listened to the revised version. I thought it sounded pretty good.

I thought there were spots where the snare was having trouble coming through.

I thought the kick was a little on the "sterile" side. Too much of the low-midrange removed. It had that "bouncing basketball" sound.

The vocals were a bit far back in the mix. I noticed some bobbled notes. I didn't mind the heavy reverb on this too much, but I thought there was a little too much used on the lead vocal.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I made some changes to the kick.





New revised version:
[MP3]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54393172/BGC%20test6.mp3[/MP3]
 
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TripleM said:
I would think that could introduce all kinds of potential phase problems. I wasn't aware that most people use more than one mic on a kick.
Click to expand...

There is often one for each side (the boom and the pedal). Same for the snare (top thump and bottom metal spring thing)
 
I like the sounds you have here, like the reverb too for the distance added, it fits the song. The timing issues with the drums and guitars are somewhat distracting and if time is a problem maybe you can move or cut odd strums? The space def. improved with the advice and work you've done, very nice.
 
I agree with a lot of what's been said here, but my initial thought is that the violin part is much too loud at the beginning of the track; the first few times through the phrase, it's not playing anything interesting, just long notes that seem to be more harmonic background than lead tones, so it shouldn't be upfront in the mix like it is. Then, when the violin actually starts moving and becomes more interesting, it seems to get lost in the mix, so I'd bring the level down at the beginning and then bring it up as it starts moving. Just my two cents. ;)
 
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