Mixer vs. controller and preamps

keilson

keilson

New member
Ok....I'm still saving, but I am trying to decide which way I'm gonna go. I already have a motu 24i. Soundcraft Ghost with what I currently have or a controler surface and a bunch of decent preamps. Cost wise (depending on preamps and control surface) they are in the same budget range. Let me hear some opinions. I considered a digital mixer, but if I purchased that I'd have no use for the motu 24i and I would need an ADAT card for both the mixer and my computer. It would cost even more I figured.
 
Are you thinking of a new or used Ghost? A fully loaded used Ghost can be had for under $3K. At that price you would be lucky to get 2-4 decent preamps and no control surface.

I've got a Ghost and it's a great board for the money. Get the MMC version so you have MIDI mute and transport control. The 8 buss faders can also send midi messages so it is also a decent basic DAW controller.

If you really just want a couple high quality channels of pres than outboard would be the way to go. I think the Ghost is fine for most stuff but you could add some nicer pre's down the road. Some of the cheapie digital mixers also make great controllers.
 
good point. well depending on how decent of preamps i'd want i know it could cost that much. how much do you think i can get the simplest model of ghost 24 channel for? Maybe I'd be better off getting that and saving my money. I'd rather save the money then have automation. A good digital mixer would probably be up there with the full loaded ghost, when you're talking connecting it to the computer.
 
You can get into a 24CH LE used for under $2k. I wouldn't underestimate the value of automated mutes if you are going to be doing analog mixes. The Ghost is a nice board but any mid level board is going to have a lot of hiss with all the channels up. As I recall the SNR drops to around 75db with everything up. Being able to auto mute groups of channels means that your intros, breaks and solo passages will be nice and clean.

The automation is really easy to use. You just create different mute scenes and assign each scene to a time code number. Then play the song and the mutes will happen exactly when you want them.
 
thanks for all the info tex. i plan to keep all my mixes in the digital domain. that's why i was looking at a control surface to make it easier then using the mouse all the time. And if you say there is a lot of hiss, maybe I should look at the digital boards? I'm pretty confused lol. Do any of the digital boards have good preamps? Also, is the only way to record with them to computer is through ADAT which is 20 bit and only 8 channels I believe?
 
To be honest I'm not all that up on the latest digital boards and control surfaces. I would be suprised to find any with pre's that rival the ghost for the same money but they could be out there.

There are a lot of different ways to get digital audio from the board into the computer. Since you already have the Motu I would look for a board that uses whatever digital i/o the motu is using.

Digital boards also have hiss since it is completely unavoidable. They usually do have less but in many cases you are also sacrificing the musical coloration that a good analog board gives. It's really a matter of preference and taste. Hiss isn't a big deal when a channel is playing a track. It is only a problem when you have an open track that isn't playing any audio. That is why the automated mutes are important. The SNR on most entry level digital boards is only slightly better than the decent analog boards. When you get into the really high end stuff the analog is still quieter.

If you are just going to use the board for pres and monitoring then maybe the Ghost LE would be a good choice. I've dabbled in digital mixers and I just can't stand the interfaces. I would rather just reach out and turn a knob then have to page through a bunch of menus.

Maybe somebody can jump in with digital board recomendations. I know the Yamaha and Tascam digital boards are pretty popular.
 
Thanks Tex. The motu 24i has 24 analog in and and word clock in. There are no digital audio inputs. This limits me greatly because if I were to use with a digital mxier I'd have to go from digital to analog to digital. This would be pointless ad degrade the sound quality. I looked at the Yamah 01v, but as I said the only way to go digital to computer is if I purchase both an ADAT card for the 01v and for the computer. Plus I believe the 01v is only a 4 bus. I'd like an 8 bus mixer. Any other suggestions as Tex said.
 
I went (or am going) thru this same delima.
I sort of decided to have a bunch of grreat outboard pre's and a control surface. I actuall use the O1V as a control surface; at some point, I may make the switch to a mackie control surface, but for now, the O1V works well.

Here's the pre's I have so far:

API 312's (2 for now) but I'm going to have 6, I'm just "building" the 6pack over time. I figure that'll cover a drum kit nicely.

Audix 35102 (2) Nice, class A, discrete preamp.

Neve 33114 (2) Class A/B

What I hope to add soon:

Neve (or BA) 1073 clone.

Great River or ViPRE

That's 12 (or 13) first class, first rate pre's with all the color and clarity you (I) could ever want. Get that in a ghost.
 
very nice preamps michael jones. how does the 01v work for you as a control surface? How much would you say you spent per preamp?
 
keilson said:
very nice preamps michael jones. how does the 01v work for you as a control surface? How much would you say you spent per preamp?
Click to expand...
It works pretty good. I can control faders, mute, pan, and Eq with it on 16 channels plus the master.

The pre's range in price.
The 312's, including the rack and power supply run about $670/channel.
The Audix's are about $1000/channel, and the Neve's about $1600/channel.
The clone will be around $2800/channel.
 
Michael Jones said:
It works pretty good. I can control faders, mute, pan, and Eq with it on 16 channels plus the master.

The pre's range in price.
The 312's, including the rack and power supply run about $670/channel.
The Audix's are about $1000/channel, and the Neve's about $1600/channel.
The clone will be around $2800/channel.
Click to expand...

That's my point. A Ghost costs the same as only 2 channels of your preamps and you get 100x the functionality. I'm not saying the Ghost or any other mid range board is the be all end all for sonic quality. But you can't create an 8 channel monitor mix with monitor only effects and drive 8 channels of midi control with a 2 channel preamp. Not to mention analog mixdown functions. You can't compare $20K worth of preamps and controller to a $2000 console.

I just don't see how any studio can function without a console. I say start with a console and add the exotic stuff as the budget allows.
 
TexRoadkill said:
That's my point. A Ghost costs the same as only 2 channels of your preamps and you get 100x the functionality. I'm not saying the Ghost or any other mid range board is the be all end all for sonic quality. But you can't create an 8 channel monitor mix with monitor only effects and drive 8 channels of midi control with a 2 channel preamp. Not to mention analog mixdown functions. You can't compare $20K worth of preamps and controller to a $2000 console.

I just don't see how any studio can function without a console. I say start with a console and add the exotic stuff as the budget allows.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying a nice mid range board isn't the way to go. But I can create an 8 channel mix. My AD/DA converters have 8 bus outs each. You simply route your channels to any bus out via the software.
The console (in my case) is virtual, and quite functional. The O1V simply gives me hands on control of faders, mutes, pans, eq's, fx...

Best of both worlds.
 
you both have very good points. I think that for me to get nice preamps and a control surface is probably too costly for me at this point. I'm a student and I think the best thing for now would be to save for a ghost. Michael Jones has a very nice setup and I'm sure it works great for him, but it's way out of my price range. Especially since there are times I record 16 channels at once. There's no way I could afford 16 channels of $600 per channel preamps and a control surface. Thanks again for the great responses Tex and Michael.


One more question I forgot to add....
Do you think the ghost would be overkill considering I only use the mixer for tracking. Wihtout automation on the mixer I wouldn't be able to use it for mixing, because the MOTU 24i only has 2 outputs.
 
Like I said. Best of both worlds. I didn't just go down and buy all this stuff. I've acquired it over a long period of time. My current setup started off with the O1V. It was my only converter, my only source of pres and my mixer, FX board and temporary patch bay, and control surface all rolled into one! Thats been several years, and I'm just now getting to the point where I feel like I'm out-growing the O1V. In fact, its only use now is as a control surface.

Had I started off with a nice Ghost with Midi Machine Control, and still added the outboard pres, I doubt I'd EVER outgrow that setup.

Right now I just need to decide if I want to sink 2 grand into a Ghost, or $1200-$1600 in a Mackie control surface. I'd almost go for the Ghost if I could be sure its faders would interface and control the "mixer" in Nuendo.
 
I don't know. I would think that if it works with Nuendo, it would work with SX.

Protools, on the other hand, is, I believe, proprietary.
 
The Motu24I only has 2 outputs? I didn't realize that. You would be limited for using outboard gear or doing any analog mixdown work. That kinda sucks but you work with what you got.

The Ghost with MMC uses the 8 Buss faders as midi sliders and there is also Transport control with track arming. I've only used the transport control with my Radar and it works okay but I think I need to use the Sony 9pin instead of MIDI for full functionality. It has a bunch of default settings for compatability with different hardware. I haven't used the midi faders but I can't imagine why it wouldn't work with any softare that allows midi control. That should be pretty straight forward.

If either of you do get a control surface make sure you get the kind with rotary knobs that keep turning and don't stop. The ones that stop are really annoying and almost make it unusable IMO. It's next to impossible to do fine panning and eq settings when you have to reset the knobs to center point and lose the previous setting.
 
good points tex. i didn't mind the fact that the 24i only had 2 outputs because i have been doing all my mixing in the digital domain. i didn't want to go back to analog again for mixdown because i felt it would degrade the quality. I have time before I go out and buy an actual ghost. I just need to keep researching, maybe speak to a dealer. Where else, besides ebay and digibid, could I find a used soundcraft ghost?
 
TexRoadkill said:
The Ghost with MMC uses the 8 Buss faders as midi sliders ...

If either of you do get a control surface make sure you get the kind with rotary knobs that keep turning and don't stop.
Click to expand...

So does that mean that the Ghost will only control 8 faders?



Yeah. I hear ya. The O1V has rotary knobs that just keep turning.
 
I got mine on Ebay so other than local want adds I don't know. Do some occasional searches on Google and different stuff shows up.

Michael - That's correct. You only get 8 channels of control. I don't use a DAW anymore, just the Radar, so it's not an issue for me. The last time I had to trouble shoot a pop/click problem I almost through my computer out the window, lol. I haven't lost one second of productivity going the HDR/Mixer route.
 
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