Mixer help please

O

omo

New member
New to the forum
But was reccomended to me as the best place for help.

I've been a casual recorder for a long time from 4 track casette to 8 track digital decks.

I've recently took the plunge into the world of DAW.

Brief summery of set up is as follows:
Mac G5 Dual 2.5g Ram
Running Pro Tools MP
M Audio Audiophile 410
Tapco Mix 120
Art Tube Preamp
Line 6 Pod
& Oxygen 8 M Audio Midi Keyboard

With this collection of equipment, my recordings are becoming more and more sophisticated and I don't regret the move to DAW, the world of Plug ins and Virtual instruments is immence, so I've no regrets...
... well, apart from one.

The latency issue.

All my reserch on line has been a very casual "you can sort out the latency issue simply by using a mixer" answer.
Now as a singer, I need to hear what I'm singing as I sing, like I did in casette and hard disc recording. This is the main reason I purchased the Tapco mix120.

I've hooked up the mixer to the 410 as per the diagram provided.

I dose'nt work. I can either hear what I'm recording from the mac with latency, or what I'm recording with no music, making my overdubs hell.

I've played with the wiring a bit and all I seem to achieve is feedback. Which would be great if this was 1986 and I was in The Jesus and Mary Chain.

Could someone please help in perhaps pointing out where I'm going wrong.

I saw another thread while searching this forum that asked a similar question to this, that was locked... So I hope I'm not asking a for the wrong kind of advice here.

Many many thanks in advance
 
Sure creamy, I'll do my best as I'm not in my "studio" right now.

The main out from the mixer ( L&R) is plugged into the two inputs at the back of the 410 (1&2). Rendering the 2 XLR ports at the front redundent, but thats OK because the mixer has better preamps. So when I record say, 2 tracks of guitar I plug into the first two channels on the mixer and hard pan them left and right to have seperation and 2 clean tracks in pro tools.

Now the 410 has 8 outputs so I use output 1 & 2 and plug them into Tape in on the mixer (as described in the tapco manual) The controll room out on the mixer is going into my amp and feeding my JBL monitors.

So I set up a new track in pro tools for my vocal overdub, amp off, headphones on. I monitor whats coming off the timeline with latency on my vocals, flick the tape button on the mixer, and my vocals are perfect, but with no backing track!

I've tryed plugging the output from the 410 into a stereo in on the mixer but as soon as I activete the record button on pro tool, I get a feedback loop.

The solution is probably very easy, but I just cant seem to get my head around it.

How do I listen to my backing track while I record, without recording my backing track as well?

thanks again
 
And therein lies the problems with using your main outs as your "independant" outs. You can't really keep any other signal coming in to your board out of that loop unless you just eliminate it, so your playback is going to play through your mains out as well.

You need to get a headphone amp and dedicate 2 of the outs from your interface to it, as well as 2 going straight to your monitors. Use the board for tracking only, unless the board has direct outs or channel inserts.

You can use the Aux send for a particular channel, but you will only get 1 isolated track this way, then just make sure the rest of the aux. knobs are all the way down for the other channels.
 
Thanks for your reply Creamyapples,

I had a feeling the solution would be - "buy more stuff"

Can you explain why I keep reading the phrase "I dont have a problem with latency with my DAW as I simply use a mixer" they make it seem like an easy solution when that clearly aint the case.

If I hook a headphone amp to my 410 then I'm still monotoring the output right, when I really want to be monotoring my input as I overdub to avoid latency. Right?

The 410 has 2 headphone plugs, so why would I need a headphone amp? I got the mixer so's not to use them.

Why do I even need a mixer then? How does a mixer prevent latency?

(I still dont understand aux sends - I'm such a stupid newbie)

thanks again
 
I also read something about keeping the fader of the track that I'm recording on in pro tools down to avoid feedback, but that don't work either.

I'm sooooo confused with this.
 
As far as I know, a mixer, no mixer, whatever has no effect on "latency" what-so-ever. That's a PC issue and lies within PC related hardware/software settings.

People with Mixers that can monitor their playback and tracking at the same time, do so because they have the proper options to do so. I.E. a Board with direct outs and/or channel inserts for each channel. Then you'd either plug your phones into the board or a headphone amp from the control room outs from the board and mix your signals with your faders, etc. The options are multiple if you have multiple outs from the DAW and a multi-channel board with direct outs/inserts and several busses to play with.

You had the right idea by getting a board, you just didn't pick one with the proper options. People still use boards these days for a few reasons.

Preamps
Signal Routing
or because they still mix on the board and record to another medium (DAT/CD/Tape)
I'm sure a few other reasons that I'm not thinking of/aware of.

Simple solution here would be to see if you can send your board back and get one with atleast inserts on the mic channels. If not, see if you can sell it on here/eBay and put that cash towards another board. THEN, you should have all the input/output capability you need without the feedback loops and headache. If you have any questions about a specific board, post it, I'm sure everyone here would be glad to help.
 
I was thinking that perhaps I had the wrong kind of board for what I need.

It was a toss up between the Tapco mix120
t2_mix120_1.jpg


and the Soundcraft compact 4
compact_4_front.jpg


but it was suggested to me that it was better go with the Tapco as it was made by Mackie and therefore used the same preamps.

I argued that the Soundcraft website said that you could "blend" the signals together and therfore zero latency.
But was told that a mixer is a mixer and that blending is just another name for mixing.

Really appreciate your help Creamy.
Finally I'm getting the right kind of advice.
 
Also, is it true that you can cheat the direct out thing by plugging your jack in half way?
 
Yes, but it's for the channel inserts that it's done. That's the method I use. Plug into the channel insert slowly until you hit the first "click" and you essentially have a direct out.

I'm using a Yamaha MG16/4 and a Mackie 1202, neither have direct outs but both have inserts. You'll find alot of other people are using the same method.

I'm still confused as to where anyone is refering to latency when discussing analog mixing boards. Adding/taking away a board to/from a DAW setup will have zero effect on any latency issues that may/may not be present.
 
This is one of the many articles I read about the subject:

"If your main problem with high latency is due to attempts to monitor your input signal during recording, then there is one easy way to avoid the issue altogether, and this is to use an external mixer for monitoring purposes in time honoured fashion. If you want to hear the performance complete with effects (as most vocalists and guitarists do) then use some existing analogue outboard effects for this purpose. However, tap off the signal to be recorded pre-effects, using a direct channel output or insert point on the mixer, so that the recording itself is made dry. Then you can apply software plug-in effects afterwards, and still play around with the final effect settings as much as you like. Since the final mix will usually determine the type and level of effects used for each instrument, recording dry is always the safer option anyway.
If you really want to use software plug-in effects during monitoring, you could try only using a 100 percent wet effect (with reverb for instance), but routing the direct signal using hardware, either using a hardware thru (if available) or an external mixer. In this way, the important direct sound would have zero latency, but you would still get some effect in your headphones as well to help support the sound."

From here

I don't fully understand how to put that into practice...
 
That's still not exactly a latency issue as a direct result of adding the board. This article is from 1999 and may not be quite as accurate now, as it was then.

As far as effects go, if you apply your plugins to already recorded tracks, they should playback through whatever outs you run them to, regardless what those are plugged into. Mixer, monitors, headphone amp, etc.




My setup is pretty standard/average for the "home recording" sector, I think. I use an M-Audio Delta 1010 with breakout box, a Yamaha MG16/4, 2 external Amplifers a set of passive monitors and a set of standard home stereo speakers, headphone amp. Several sets of pres.

For playback, I run outs 1 and 2 from the 1010 to the amplifier>monitors. Outs 3 and 4 from the 1010 go to a stereo channel on the yamaha board. The main outs of the board go to the amp with the standard home speakers, control room outs go to my headphone amp.

I can listen through all three sources at once, or any combination of the three including any single source by itself. Routing playback is done in the program, I tell the Master bus to send through outs 1 and 2 and the aux buss to play through 3 and 4. Hope you're still with me lol

With it setup like this, I have every option I need for playback and tracking. During tracking I run my mix through the aux bus in Sonar that plays through outs 3 and 4 that runs to the stereo channel on my board. I pull the fader for channel 9/10 (where outs 3/4 from the 1010 go) up and pull the fader for the main outs down. Turn up my control room out and I have headphones for tracking. While doing this, I can use any of the onboard preamps on that same board, running the insert as a "direct out" and using the faders on those channels only to monitor my tracking source while my playback is pumping through channel 9/10.

Where it gets tricky is if you are using a standalone Preamp and monitoring through a seperate source. Hopefully, whatever program you are using allows for monitoring during record. A useful function.
 
I think a little part of my brain just leaked out my ear due to a meltdown.

I'm using Pro Tools MP.

My bottom line is that I want to be able to record overdubs with zero latency. I cant seem to and thats whats doing my head in.


I'm going to print out this advice and see what I can do when I get home.

PS when you say "tracking" you mean " recording" right?
 
RAM never hurts, but if there is a latency issue, it has nothing to do with your mixer. You need to check your settings in Protools and with your soundcard/interface. I'm afraid I'm not very well versed with your software or hardware so I may not be of much assistance in fixing that one.
 
If your Interface supports Low Latency Direct Monitoring then there shouldn"t be any noticeable Latency, at least when useing ASIO drivers....

make sure you are recording in ASIO mode and your Buffer setting are correct....



:D
 
Minion said:
If your Interface supports Low Latency Direct Monitoring then there shouldn"t be any noticeable Latency, at least when useing ASIO drivers....

make sure you are recording in ASIO mode and your Buffer setting are correct....



:D
Click to expand...

um, macs dont have ASIO drivers..
 
omo said:
My bottom line is that I want to be able to record overdubs with zero latency. I cant seem to and thats whats doing my head in.
Click to expand...

Two words... "Firewire mixer". Yeah, more money.


A firewire mixer will tap the signal from the inputs like you had inserts; right after the trim knob. The signal will not see the eq, reverb or anything else on the board. Just the pre-amp and the converter. It goes off to the computer through the firewire interface. But it also continues on through the mixer which is where you're listening, so it's real time monitoring. You can add effects, like reverb or eq, soley for monitoring; it won't go to the computer.

The playback comes from the computer. As you're recording, you're listening to your track directly because you are monitoring it through the mixer, not from the computer. The playback track comes from the computer and you're listening to that as well. No latency as you're recording. Plus you can increase your buffer and latency settings in your daw and ease the load on the cpu (at least I think it does).

It works great and you don't need a lot cables running all over the place. I'm not familiar with pro-tools, though. I don't know how it will work. But I use Cubase with a firewire mixer and it's very easy and simple to use.

Hope this helps.
 
Yeah this bad boy is on my list.

But may I draw your attention to the following exerpt from the Pro Tools manual:

"If you are monitoring the recording source with an external mixer before it is routed to Pro Tools, you will not hear any latency."

See the attached screen grab.

Is there ANY way I can do what I hope to do with equipment I currently own?
I've spent many months setting up this studio and I'm way past my deadline for getting down to some serious recording.

Is there a McGyver in the house?!?
 

Attachments

  • PT manual.pdf
    24.8 KB · Views: 5
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top