Microphone tests and explanations

Lazer was asking in another topic about Sax VSTi options - which gave me the idea to make a microphone guide for saxophones. Then I had a think and wondered how many people have actually looked closely at saxes, so I've done quite a long video - the first section is about how saxophones work and what their recording issues are, then there's some recordings of three different saxes at distances that work or fight with you.

I've repeated each clip with the Shure SM57 and the AKG 414 so you can hear how the positions make a lot of difference, as does the distance. Some clips I think suit the 414 better, while others favour the dynamic. It's long - so dig in.

You can also hear why reverb on saxophones seems a pretty vital treatment - here, it's exactly as recorded. No compression, no reverb or other processing.

I didn't intend to, but I briefly covered the fact the damn things are transposing instruments, so hopefully, if you have never recorded a sax you could be a bit better prepared for what will happen.
 
I've done the piano recording - and my friend's Yamaha is in his house, and it's a totally normal room - no acoustic treatment at all, so a difficult space - so a great experiment. I thought I'd use a typical distant technique, that works in lovely spaces - a pair of 414's in fig-8 mode, crossed at right angles - so a Blumlein stereo technique, that is usually lacking in smaller, parallel walled spaces. I used this as the 'comparison' and then put two SDCs in closer on boom stands. In a previous video I compared C451s against cheaper Samson C02 mics - opposite ends of the price spectrum - so I used them again.

In my head, I was thinking about that typical grand piano sound we often hear when people put up recordings of singers in concerts being accompanied by a grand piano - the voice usually works, but the piano often comes a distinct second in sound quality. I've always used a closer mic technique and blended them afterwards, but for this video I thought I'd experiment.

I got Grant to play the same piece multiple times - and swapped out the 451 mics for the C01's in the same physical location. Through the headphones it seemed clear they'd not be chalk and cheese - but closer, so more subtle differences. I also got him to play the piece on a master keyboard and I've included the sound of Pianoteq 6 - a VSTi, played via Cubase.

The result is a comparison on sound between 414, 451, C02 and a simulation - all recorded dry, no added reverb, dynamic processing or fiddling.

I also at the end got him to do one final version where I hand-held a Neumann TLM103 and moved it around while he played - including some unusual places.

Common internet wisdom is that for a grand piano, you must do X, but never do Y - so I've tried to let you hear the differences between these so called good and bad mic positions. The point I think is that conventional mic placement is to do with the strings, and where you put the mic, but also the effect of the soundboard. Clearly, with a grand piano - one pedal shifts 88 sets of hammers and keys to one side. This makes a noise. Another pedal lifts and drops 88 felt dampers onto the strings. The mic positions enhance or reduce these effects, along with the direct sound from the hammers hitting the strings, it's a balance between every little thing. the sound of the hammer on string, the thump of the dampers, the clunk of the keys moving sideways AND the overall component the soundboard adds. I let you hear what it sounds like underneath - and Yamaha grands do sound better underneath than others. It occurred to me that maybe a mic underneath, for the big sounds, blended with a mic or two closer to the hammers for definition might be a good (and new?) technique.

Don't forget that in this video, the lid is on full stick - so angles the sound toward the position where the 414's are. If you remove the lid, it sort of turns into an omni instrument, but is sort of a cardioid with full stick. Half-stick beams the output in an even narrower 'beam' height wise, and of course with the lid shut - the tiny subtle stuff gets reduced quite a bit - you make it a very darker sound compared to the lid being up.

In the section with the moving mic, note that there is not a huge variation in volume - most people assume that closer to the hammers is louder, when closer just means a little more percussive components are collected. In fact, the volume level not changing meant I had to restart the recording - I noticed the volume wasn't changing much, so to make sure, I pulled all the mic cables out bar the 103 - just to make sure it wasn't accidentally recording the wrong one!

Anyway - what do you think? Which sound do you like? For convenience, the Pianoteq simulation, with some reverb is very usable - but the sound of the two cheaper mics is actually not at all bad.

If you have any questions - just ask away.
 
How about a double bass. We did a double bass video to follow the piano and sax ones - some of the same mics did less well in this one. The double bass has a pickup on the bridge and my God - is it terrible!
 
Me too! I watched a bit of Ep15 (Piano) lovely.

I just subbed but I struggle to find time to watch videos lately. I am looking forward to it though.
 
I just spent some time listening to the double bass video.

Conclusions:
1) position makes a lot of difference. I always preferred the close mic, and depending on the mic, it changed high vs low.

2) The Samson mics were incredibly noisy vs the others. The hiss, especially on the distant micing was distracting for both. It wasn't that the tone was bad, but even with my stuffy head and ears ringing today, I could hear the hiss on both mics, close or far.

3) The pickup was dreadful! You would need a LOT of adjustment to get something worthwhile out of it.

I quite liked the D112, low and close. It seemed to minimize the clacking of the strings, picked up the low bass better. The TLM 103 was a disappointment. It really didn't seem to grab the body of the instrument, especially when placed high. I would take the C01 close in over the TLM103 even with the increased hiss. The Shure was sort of meh... more midbass than low bass, it just seemed lacking. The trouble is that it might actually work better with other instruments where you need the punch, a bit of a dilemma. The U87 really captured the clacking to distraction.
 
I had to throw away the 87 distant recording, it was all clack and no body at all. When you consider the mics we’re the same as in other recordings, with the same equipment the poorer result many had was just a heads up for assuming good on x automatically means good on y. The samsons performed quite badly I thought here. A different player with different bass could alter the choice again. I feel quite guilty about that pick-up. I’ve recorded the bass often, but never used it apart from on stage a few times, which makes me question the speakers. I like 10” speakers and played it through an 8 X 10” cab and just knocked the top off and thought it ok. I wonder what the sound guy thought? He never said anything?
 
Episode 17 - 6 microphones all on the same voice, including a couple of new ones - Oktava MK 319 and the EV RE320 - In the video there are links to the raw files if you need a serious listen - in 48K .wav rather than after Youtube's squashing.
 
The blue shirt needs a Star Trek insignia. haha . Science Officer, analysis, please. Nice solid pitch.

Those are some of the best microphones to be surrounded with. im jealous.
 
I'm curious if you ever tried the Neumann U87 recorded to tape? Have you got a cassette system or 1/4"?

Would you think it would change the results? Changing the noise floor, might amplify certain characteristics.
 
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I think I have a Tascam 112 somewhere, but I got my first DAT in 94/95 and I got rid of analogue - I regret the reel to reels, but just for their archaicness, not quality. I can't think of any reason to add noise to a clean signal.
 
I think I have a Tascam 112 somewhere, but I got my first DAT in 94/95 and I got rid of analogue - I regret the reel to reels,
You ever spliced a loop?

You are missing out on all the fun. Cut the tape at like 45 degree. Use the adhesive tape on top side. No gap. No bubbles. Wash hands first to remove grease. When you get it right, it is like a cut and paste in the DAW. To measure and work with a physical medium in your hands was satisfying to me. Like I was building something. Not just creating.

1/4" is phenomenal.

About adding noise, I think its just a different dynamic all together. It might bring out the best in some of the old microphone designs.
 
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I worked with 1/4" tape for years, and as a junior one of my jobs was splicing in the red and green leader for broadcast segments. Most splices though were 90 degree ones - 45 just when a fade was needed rather than a simple butt joint. I did even do a little mechanical splicing on video - painting the tape with ferro fluid so you could see the sync pulses - now that was not a fun job. Hiss was the main issue with tape of all kinds - reel to reel, and even the short lived Elcassettes which were better than cassette as they had 1/4" tape and 3 3/4IPS. We pushed levels and tweaked bias to get the minimum hiss and maximum signal, and rolling off the HF was often more acceptable than the dreaded hiss. Using Dolby B, then C was so vital - Digital was so good when it arrived.
 
I was listening to the vocal mic comparison. A couple of notes that I would make:

SM7B - Sounds full, the lower register of your voice seems a bit too strong.
414 - Pretty neutral Not sibilant.
319 - A bit fatter than the 414, and touch brighter than the 414
U87 - Seems to be lacking in the 100-200 hz range. Not bright, but "lean"
320 - Sibilant! the "S"s really pop out. It's got the "smile" frequency curve built in.
103 - Bright. Sibilance shows up, lacking the mid character of the 87 and the bottom of the 414 and 319.

All of them could be used for a vocal track, but I would be hitting the highs with the last two. On the SM7, it would be the opposite, trimming the lows.

Good comparison. I see why you like that 414.
 
BTW, The choir recordings are great.

The Blumlein sounds great on speakers, but leaves a bit of a Hole in the Middle with headphones. For me, M/S was better on headphones, as you could set the middle strength as you please. In the past it would have been an easy call, go with the speakers. With so many people listening on ear buds, things aren't quite as clear cut.

This one should be on a sticky. It's a wonderful primer for newbie recordists.
 
Thanks Rich, that opinion's really helpful. I've just done another choirs job, word of mouth from the first one and a fairly rush job, but in that same venue - just a different type of event. I'm not that religious, and don't quite understand the religious seasons but this is clearly about easter, and this choir is really a consort - so two sopranos, one alto and two fellas on tenor and bass. They handed me a chart. Each piece and it said things like "Starts at the font, then processes to half way down the church, where Bass and Tenor are on one side and one alto and one soprano are on the other side of the centre aisle - the other soprano is at the front, to the right in a small side area. Next song they all move to the altar. Next song they split into left, centre and right aisles. I worked out a plan and set up and then 30 minutes before the start after a rehearsal they asked if I could move from my tiny area half way down one side, because I spoiled the 'picture'. As in the symmetry, and they thought a grey haired old git with equipment and headphones looked incongruous (I think - or maybe just not good looking enough?)

So what do I have - Blumlein from the font, because the bell tower is in their rear and they sang the final song in the bell tower area. In the middle I have an omni and side, for an M/S capture, because the mid mic needs to go up and down the length of the church. The side mics seem to have worked for the M/S fine. At the front I used the same 319 cardioids as the previous recording because they seemed to have enough reach.

Sync wise, at the end, I did a clap, captured on all sources. It enabled the H2 to be synced with the H6 fine, but clearly I was going to have a problem with time delay between the bell tower end and the altar - I'd estimate maybe 150ft (50m). I decided that the M/S position half way down would become the datum - and it seems to have worked. However, the processional aspect means a slow crossfade between them - font x-fades to mid, then that x-fades to altar, and while it works well, automated and tweaked in Cubase, there is a shift in the stereo field and it's weird. Stereo is essentially left and right of the centre aisle, but the separation of M/S works nicely, but it's more than the others have - their stereo separation is more gentle. Maybe I can also automate the side channel to match more, but Rich's point about the hole in the middle is a problem here too. On speakers in the studio it's not that obvious, but on headphones, especially now I have tried it, IEMs, there is a hole, but oddly in mono it seems to be better, as if the two components are adding in mono filling it in?

The sound of the Blumlein, 50m away from the altar is pretty messed up - dull and no definition. It's not an ideal recording - made worse by the audience noise. Quite a bit. One latecomer arrived during the first quiet section in a motorised scooter thing and had to do a 20 point turn when I quietly pointed out that he was standing where the choir were about to return to. The rubber tyres doing the turn squeaked terribly on the floor!
 
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