Mic pros, answer me this: Close or far?
- Thread starter swindle
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Blue Bear Sound
New member
Further back - 8-12 inches, sometimes more...
...kinda depends on the application and the talent. Also the style of music.
If the talent has good mic technique, they will control their own dynamics by moving in and out appropriately. With novices, you're better off having them further away, mark an X on the floor (with tape), and then telling them not to move from that spot on penalty of death.
(Plus you get the added bonus of how motivated they get when they realize they're singing for their lives!!!)
Bruce
...kinda depends on the application and the talent. Also the style of music.
If the talent has good mic technique, they will control their own dynamics by moving in and out appropriately. With novices, you're better off having them further away, mark an X on the floor (with tape), and then telling them not to move from that spot on penalty of death.
(Plus you get the added bonus of how motivated they get when they realize they're singing for their lives!!!)
Bruce
JuSumPilgrim
New member
whats up swindle, my fellow bklyn native...Id just like to add that close micing soft to moderate vocals has worked for me in a huge way. By close I mean around 6 inches or even 3-4 sometimes, further than that and the fullness and intimacy just aint there the same way.
Wallycleaver
New member
I agree with Bruce.....Damn! Get a fairly dead room and have the singer step back from the mic 6-12 inches. Plenty of room for the sound waves to fully devolp and get a better sound!
Blue Bear Sound
New member
heh-heh, WallyWallycleaver said:
Harvey Gerst
New member
And the correct answer is: "It depends". Close and distant miking both have advantages and disadvantages. Close miking (under 1 foot) gives you proximity effect, lower noise, and a more intimate sound. The "inverse square" law is also in full effect up close, so that any singer movement will be exaggerated. At 2"from the mic, a movement of 1" in or 2" out will result in a 6 dB level change. But for a thin, whispery singer, singing a ballad, close miking can be really nice.
Close miking loud singers can overload the mic's electronics (in condensor mics), the mixing board preamp, or even worse, the capsule itself.
Distant miking (18" away or more) eliminates movement problems, proximity effect, and "plosives", but it requires that you increasing the preamp gain to compensate, which brings up the mic's self-noise. Distant miking also usually requires a really good room (or the room reflections can get nasty).
Like almost everything else in the recording chain, understanding and learning the compromises and tradeoffs is the key to great recording technique. There is no one single or simple answer - it's all about learning how the stuff works, and what needs to be done. There is no one perfect mic; there is no one perfect position, and there is no one perfect answer.
Close miking loud singers can overload the mic's electronics (in condensor mics), the mixing board preamp, or even worse, the capsule itself.
Distant miking (18" away or more) eliminates movement problems, proximity effect, and "plosives", but it requires that you increasing the preamp gain to compensate, which brings up the mic's self-noise. Distant miking also usually requires a really good room (or the room reflections can get nasty).
Like almost everything else in the recording chain, understanding and learning the compromises and tradeoffs is the key to great recording technique. There is no one single or simple answer - it's all about learning how the stuff works, and what needs to be done. There is no one perfect mic; there is no one perfect position, and there is no one perfect answer.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
There ya go...
...nice to see ya here Harvey! Your contributions are more than welcome....
Bruce
...nice to see ya here Harvey! Your contributions are more than welcome....
Bruce
Harvey Gerst
New member
Re: There ya go...
While the bulk of microphone designing still remains a "black art", there are some laws of physics which can't be overcome (except by advertising, it seems). Someone in this forum said that the extremes of a mic's published frequency response represent the -3 or -6dB down points. Hah!! Try the -10dB down point, for most mics.
And a frequency response curve doesn't tell you much either, unless you know the manufacturer's "tolerance for deviation" from that printed curve. Neumann, for example, uses a 4 dB window of deviation (+/- 2 dB), which is very tight. Sennheiser uses a 6dB window.
Fewer people here understand the nature of proximity effect; it moves from none in omni mode (pure "pressure" mode) to it's maximum in Figure 8 mode (Bi-directional) "Pressure Gradient" mode. For the record, here's the way the proximity effect can be figured for different patterns:
Omni - No proximity effect *
Card - Some proximity effect
Hyper - More proximity effect
Fig. 8 - Most proximity effect
*Dual diaphragm, multi-pattern condensor mics are made from two cardioids mounted back to back. Omni mode simply combines the two cardioid patterns in phase to simulate omni. You can still get proximity effect from this type of design.
And a bigger condensor diaphragm doesn't mean more bass response; it means more output signal.
Anyway, that's about enough from me. Sorry about the rant.
Actually, I swore to myself I would't post here ever again, but some of the stuff I've seen recently was driving me crazy. It's sad to see how much misinformation is floating around. It seems like spec sheets, specials, reviews, and advertising are becoming the sole reasons for microphone purchases.Blue Bear Sound said:...nice to see ya here Harvey! Your contributions are more than welcome....
Bruce
While the bulk of microphone designing still remains a "black art", there are some laws of physics which can't be overcome (except by advertising, it seems). Someone in this forum said that the extremes of a mic's published frequency response represent the -3 or -6dB down points. Hah!! Try the -10dB down point, for most mics.
And a frequency response curve doesn't tell you much either, unless you know the manufacturer's "tolerance for deviation" from that printed curve. Neumann, for example, uses a 4 dB window of deviation (+/- 2 dB), which is very tight. Sennheiser uses a 6dB window.
Fewer people here understand the nature of proximity effect; it moves from none in omni mode (pure "pressure" mode) to it's maximum in Figure 8 mode (Bi-directional) "Pressure Gradient" mode. For the record, here's the way the proximity effect can be figured for different patterns:
Omni - No proximity effect *
Card - Some proximity effect
Hyper - More proximity effect
Fig. 8 - Most proximity effect
*Dual diaphragm, multi-pattern condensor mics are made from two cardioids mounted back to back. Omni mode simply combines the two cardioid patterns in phase to simulate omni. You can still get proximity effect from this type of design.
And a bigger condensor diaphragm doesn't mean more bass response; it means more output signal.
Anyway, that's about enough from me. Sorry about the rant.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Re: Re: There ya go...
We can't have enough professional advice here - and while there are a lot of good people at this site, (not to mention some GREAT pros!!!), as always, there are going to be a few that gum-up the works....
Actually, this place is nowhere near as bad as some of the grade-A morons one can encounter on R.A.P.!
Pull up a chair, stay as long as you like!!!
Bruce
That would have been a shame (not posting anymore), 'cos the best way to stem the misinformation is for the pros to provide solid, helpful and accurate info to the new kids on the block!Harvey Gerst said:
We can't have enough professional advice here - and while there are a lot of good people at this site, (not to mention some GREAT pros!!!), as always, there are going to be a few that gum-up the works....
Actually, this place is nowhere near as bad as some of the grade-A morons one can encounter on R.A.P.!
Pull up a chair, stay as long as you like!!!
Bruce
Harvey Gerst
New member
Re: Re: Re: There ya go...
Ahhh, but on r.a.p., we have Fletcher and a few other pros who quickly and efficiently put an end to people slagging more knowledgable people.Blue Bear Sound said:
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Heh-heh...
...yeah, I know - I love it when Fletcher does that!
Here we have Ed Rei (sonusman)... not quite as cutting as Fletcher, but pretty close... and he knows his sh*t cold too!
Bruce
...yeah, I know - I love it when Fletcher does that!
Here we have Ed Rei (sonusman)... not quite as cutting as Fletcher, but pretty close... and he knows his sh*t cold too!
Bruce
Harvey Gerst
New member
I've talked with Ed and you're right, he's great.
Actually, I'm between Krum and Boliver. What a strange place for an L.A. engineer to end up in.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Hey Harvey...
..since you're on-line - can I pick your brain for a sec?
Any ideas on this thread ----> https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26415 ??
Bruce
..since you're on-line - can I pick your brain for a sec?
Any ideas on this thread ----> https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26415 ??
Bruce
Harvey Gerst
New member
Re: up close and personal
I know that George Massenburg (as long as we're talking about friends) doesn't get the mic that close when he's working with Linda Ronstadt.
As I said, it depends - and I disagree about the "mic pick-up pattern has nothing to do with it" line. At 3.5 inches away, you're in the nearfield of the mic and you better know what you're doing - and why. I've also never heard of 3.5" being a standard in this industry for "anything", except perhaps, for floppy discs.
Tell me more about Steve Lamansky - you've got me curious now. Not trying to be an asshole, but I haven't heard that name before, and I thought I know most everybody in the industry. The only people I know that I consider condensor mic "gurus" are Stephen Paul, Klause Heynes, and a small handful of others.
I don't know who Steve Lamansky is. My friend Al Schmitt says"I use a windscreen and I put it an inch or two from the mic. I try to keep the vocalist about 6 inches from the windscreen. So the vocalist is anywhere from 7 to 10 inches from the microphone. That’s usually a good place to start depending on the kind of sound you’re looking for. Sometimes, if the vocalist is trying to get a breathier quality I’ll move the mic up closer."Mantis said:
I know that George Massenburg (as long as we're talking about friends) doesn't get the mic that close when he's working with Linda Ronstadt.
As I said, it depends - and I disagree about the "mic pick-up pattern has nothing to do with it" line. At 3.5 inches away, you're in the nearfield of the mic and you better know what you're doing - and why. I've also never heard of 3.5" being a standard in this industry for "anything", except perhaps, for floppy discs.
Tell me more about Steve Lamansky - you've got me curious now. Not trying to be an asshole, but I haven't heard that name before, and I thought I know most everybody in the industry. The only people I know that I consider condensor mic "gurus" are Stephen Paul, Klause Heynes, and a small handful of others.
Harvey Gerst
New member
Re: Hey Harvey...
Bruce, I answered in that thread, rather than crosspost here. Hope it helps.Blue Bear Sound said:
Blue Bear Sound
New member
I just caught that Harvey.... I answered there too - thanks!
Bruce
Bruce
Re: up close and personal
How have you not heard of Steve Lamansky? He's like the guru of microphones. Most recently, Steve was a consultant on the movie "Bounce" with Gwyneth Paltrow & Huey Lewis. He's especially well known in the karoke insudtry. I just got off my Startac cellphone with him and he stands by 3.5 inches. 7-10 inches might be too far away, giving off a soundhall effect, at least from my experience.
Giving the answer "It depends" is such a cop out. There's either a) the standard, or b) the nonstandard. Swindle, I say go for the standard. I'm sure you haven't heard of George Massenburg. But I'll bet a million dollars you know Steve Lamansky. Final answer - Up close, 3.5 inches. With a windscreen, you can stretch it to 4.
How have you not heard of Steve Lamansky? He's like the guru of microphones. Most recently, Steve was a consultant on the movie "Bounce" with Gwyneth Paltrow & Huey Lewis. He's especially well known in the karoke insudtry. I just got off my Startac cellphone with him and he stands by 3.5 inches. 7-10 inches might be too far away, giving off a soundhall effect, at least from my experience.
Giving the answer "It depends" is such a cop out. There's either a) the standard, or b) the nonstandard. Swindle, I say go for the standard. I'm sure you haven't heard of George Massenburg. But I'll bet a million dollars you know Steve Lamansky. Final answer - Up close, 3.5 inches. With a windscreen, you can stretch it to 4.