Mic Placement... for bluegrass

B

bchordjam

New member
Hey everyone.

I'm looking at stereo micing all my instruments here... have been doing a fake stereo effect using one mic with good results. Anyways, just looking at some ideas for stereo micing a guitar, bass, banjo and mandolin. And heck, if there's anyone out there who's recording any bluegrass, let's toss some tips back and forth.

Thomas Wywrot
www.thomaswywrot.on.to
 
bchordjam said:
Hey everyone.

I'm looking at stereo micing all my instruments here... have been doing a fake stereo effect using one mic with good results. Anyways, just looking at some ideas for stereo micing a guitar, bass, banjo and mandolin. And heck, if there's anyone out there who's recording any bluegrass, let's toss some tips back and forth.

Thomas Wywrot
www.thomaswywrot.on.to
Click to expand...

All at once, or one at a time? For the whole ensemble I'd set up an XY pair with a spot mic on the bass.
 
I'm actually tracking everything separate. I don't like recording everyone at once just cause of how limited you are with the final mix. When I do my next cd there's no way I can have everyone together to play all at once anyways.

Thomas
 
I was watching Leno or Conan one night and the had a blue grass band on. The band all stodd in a a semi circle around a space pair of condensors there was also a mic on the bass. I was amazed (even over the TV) at the clarity and balance. There weren't any vocal mics just those two condensors for every thing. Very impressive.
 
I'd not do individual instruments in stereo: when you mix everything together you'll get "big mono", since the spatial cues muddy things up. I record each instrument in mono, then use the pan to place the ensemble in a stereo field when I mix. If you want to record "live" a good strategy with bluegrass is to put everyone in a sort of circle with a SDC mic on each instrument (since the mics are facing out from the center, they don't pick up as much bleed).
 
That band on Conan or whatever was probably the Del McCoury band. They're awesome for how they can control their sound like that. They were basically the first bluegrass band to start the new wave of single mic performing just like they did it back in the day. Since then they've moved to two mics and the one on the bass. I got to see them live last year too, which was pretty cool.

As for stereo recording the instruments, I never used to. I'd record the instruments in mono, and pan them off acordingly to give a stereo effect to the group. Two things changed this. I went to a recording session with a friend of mine for his new solo project. Nice studio, and I got to hang out with a few of my idols for two days. They were stereo micing all the instruments. Guitar, banjo, bass and mandolin were all in different rooms, all stereo miced. This was being done by people who have recorded bluegrass most their lives and have recorded on some of the best bluegrass cd's out there.

Second thing, I was sitting home late at night this summer and I was listening to some stuff I recordedthrough my headphones, then I tossed on one of my favourite songs from what used to be my favourite studio and it just had more of a full sound than anything i was doing. I understand they're working in a state of the art studio, but I wanted to try stereo micing. What I ended up doing anyways is recording two of the same tracks, and for mando and guitar rhythm I'd pan them one of each left and right, and offset each one just the slightest amount, and it gave my songs so much more width, and just an overall better sound. I'll toss up two songs on my webpage that I've recorded to show you what I mean. I'll post again on here when I put them up there.

Thomas
 
Yeah, to add to Lpdeluxe, having them in stereo but recorded separately brings in some interesting choices to the table. Would you have them each represented is a stereo image that tries to capture their 'pan' positions on the soundstage, or more for just trying to get nicer sounding individual tracks?
One is sort of geared toward the use of a stereo technique for the benefit of it's natural accurate rendition of the instrument and it's space, as opposed to the more typical multi-track 'pseudo-stereo' recreations.
Another aspect that could come up with 'true stereo' path, is what happens when several are stacked up together? The separate-multi-track style seems to lend it's self well to a 'mostly mono tracks with a common ambience/verb thrown up around it' tack.
Either way though, it sounds like fun. (I could use a little more accoustic flavoring around here.. ;)
Wayne
 
bchordjam said:
As for stereo recording the instruments, I never used to. I'd record the instruments in mono, and pan them off acordingly to give a stereo effect to the group. Two things changed this. I went to a recording session with a friend of mine for his new solo project. Nice studio, and I got to hang out with a few of my idols for two days. They were stereo micing all the instruments. Guitar, banjo, bass and mandolin were all in different rooms, all stereo miced. This was being done by people who have recorded bluegrass most their lives and have recorded on some of the best bluegrass cd's out there.

... What I ended up doing anyways is recording two of the same tracks, and for mando and guitar rhythm I'd pan them one of each left and right, and offset each one just the slightest amount, and it gave my songs so much more width, and just an overall better sound... Thomas
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Very interesting. So what we have is sort of a highbred combination using both ends of the techniques.
Wayne
 
Damn. Got to hear the first two -very nice by the way! I especially like 'Pray for Rain'.
The third song came in double speed. (I assume it's a problem on my end. :(
Wayne
 
bchordjam said:
I posted some songs I've recorded on a webpage at...
www.angelfire.com/apes/wywrot

The first two are ones with the mono technique, and the last one involves the fake stereo micing technique. Let me know what you guys think.

Thomas
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Nice clean sounds. Great job!

For some reason, I have one hell of a time getting a good banjo sound. What do you use for a banjo mic? How do you place it?

Actually, I like all of the sounds you achieved. Can you describe your typical mic choice & placement techniques for each of those instruments? What about your preamps?

BTW...
I have been playing Bluegrass since 1980 and have been noodling around with recording in my home for a couple of years. I have realatives in the Bluegrass scene (Gene Johnson & Dick Smith) and several friends (Ray Legere, Dan Paisley, Doug Bartlett...), so the music is very dear to me. I just need to learn how to record it better!
 
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bchordjam said:
I'm actually tracking everything separate. I don't like recording everyone at once just cause of how limited you are with the final mix. When I do my next cd there's no way I can have everyone together to play all at once anyways.

Thomas
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I've listened to Pray for Rain and Julianne... pretty good.

Here's my two cents...

This stuff needs to be captured live... logistics be damned... IMO it's missing that Bluegrass feel... not that this sucks by any means... just trying to get to the next level.

Assuming your room is Okay... assuming the players can play without goofs... assuming all goes just right...

Throw up a pair of Ribbons (R84) in a Blumlein config... rent some... get a pair somehow... this will get you 95% of what you need... you'll go holy cow... this sounds just like what I'm hearing in the room... you'll have a big grin :D on your face the whole time they're playing... even when they goof...

you can adjust instrument volumes by positioning players forward or backards some... then during solos, steping up one step will get you the level increase you need.

Put up several spot mics (4033, RE20, 421, ...)... if you must... for mixing in during the solos... if needed... you probably won't need much... if any... you'll still be grinning :D way before you reach for the spot mic fader...

Isolate the Standup Bass as much as possible... use either a transducer or a mic something like a EMC8000 around the bridge on the G side.

You may want to record the vocals separately... depends on the their talent

This will bring your quality up another notch... the recording will go much faster... they'll feel much better... everyone will be happier... and you'll still be grinning after it's over... :D
 
Sonixx said:
I've listened to Pray for Rain and Julianne... pretty good.

Here's my two cents...

This stuff needs to be captured live... logistics be damned... IMO it's missing that Bluegrass feel... not that this sucks by any means... just trying to get to the next level.

Assuming your room is Okay... assuming the players can play without goofs... assuming all goes just right...

Throw up a pair of Ribbons (R84) in a Blumlein config... rent some... get a pair somehow... this will get you 95% of what you need... you'll go holy cow... this sounds just like what I'm hearing in the room... you'll have a big grin :D on your face the whole time they're playing... even when they goof...

you can adjust instrument volumes by positioning players forward or backards some... then during solos, steping up one step will get you the level increase you need.

Put up several spot mics (4033, RE20, 421, ...)... if you must... for mixing in during the solos... if needed... you probably won't need much... if any... you'll still be grinning :D way before you reach for the spot mic fader...

Isolate the Standup Bass as much as possible... use either a transducer or a mic something like a EMC8000 around the bridge on the G side.

You may want to record the vocals separately... depends on the their talent

This will bring your quality up another notch... the recording will go much faster... they'll feel much better... everyone will be happier... and you'll still be grinning after it's over... :D
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I disagree. Unless you have a large enough room that sounds good, live recordings are a real bitch. And unless every performer in the band is REALLY good, there will be mistakes made in their performance that is tough to fix. Multitracking allows MUCH more control and cleaner overall sound. I always feel the tension within the room when I have 4-6 people anxious to start recording and I'm noodling around with different mics & positions for EACH person. It's not so bad with 1-2 people.

Your suggestions imply that his recordings aren't up to par. I find that strange since they sound very good even when compared to many of my favorite recordings.
 
Parlor Music said:
I disagree. Unless you have a large enough room that sounds good, live recordings are a real bitch. And unless every performer in the band is REALLY good, there will be mistakes made in their performance that is tough to fix. Multitracking allows MUCH more control and cleaner overall sound. I always feel the tension within the room when I have 4-6 people anxious to start recording and I'm noodling around with different mics & positions for EACH person. It's not so bad with 1-2 people.
Click to expand...
I agree with virtually every point... but you totally missed mine after agreeing with most of mine... all I'm stating is that Bluegrass captured live (can be... may be... no absolutes) better than individually tracked. If bchordjam cares to try then he may be surprised how good the result can be. I stated the room is important... maybe you missed that... I stated the talent level is a factor... again, you must have missed it... looks like you pretty much agreed with most of my points.

I can't account for your inability to pull off live tracking...

Parlor Music said:
Your suggestions imply that his recordings aren't up to par. I find that strange since they sound very good even when compared to many of my favorite recordings.
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Sorry, but that's not what I said at all... I stated it was pretty good, but that it seemed to lack the live feel. That's my impression. The recordings are very good. I listened to several tunes several times. If your saying there's no room for improvement, well I just disagree.

The instruments are solid,... the vocals are less solid.
 
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