mic or mic pre???

V

verticalplunge

New member
I have a few bucks to make some upgrades to my audio rig. One of the areas I'd like to address is micing acoustic guitar. Currently I'm using an NT1000 or Behringer ecm8000 and a Soundcraft M12 pre with a Washburn D21S. I'm not unhappy with the sound I'm gettting, but the sound I'd like to get has so far eluded me.

For $550 or so I can get a:

Neumann KM84 or a
RNP and Marshall 603s.

I'm wondering which would have a more detailed sound, the Soundcraft pres (supposedly they are the same that are in the Ghost consoles) with the classic KM84 or the budget 603 with the much hyped RNP.

So far I've been recording vocals, acoustic guitar amd electric guitar (with an ART Pro Channel primarily). At some point I'll also record hand percussion, cymbals, and pehaps violin. If there was a button I could push to sound like anything I wanted it would be the Beatles circa the White Album crossed with Another Green World-era Eno.

Thnx.
 
Goddamn the 603s sounds good on acoustic guitar. It makes some really thin old pieces of crap i have sound incredible, but adds a little too much bass on my new Takamine when im close to it. Still sounds great, and only costs $89.
 
verticalplunge said:
If there was a button I could push to sound like anything I wanted it would be the Beatles circa the White Album crossed with Another Green World-era Eno.
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Please forgive me here, but it sounds almost like you want two different things here at the same time. :D You mention you want detailed, then you mention the white album. The White album is not what I think of when I think "detailed," and Eno and post psychadelic experimentation Beatles are also very different IMVHO.

If detail is eluding you, I'm not sure if the mic or the pre is your problem. And a Marshall 603 with an RNP or a 184 with the soundcraft both sound like some pretty nice options perfectly capable of delivering the goods.

My wild guess is this is more of a micing technique issue. Accoustic guitars are hard to get a detailed sound out of if you're not yet up to speed on where to position the mics, and how to cut/tame the bass come mixdown time. It's tricky because you wouldn't expect there to be so much bass generated by an accoustic guitar. But when you look at an accoustic track through a spectrum analyzer for example, there it is. You realize it produces just about as much bass as a bass guitar or bass drum at times, so it's deceiving. :D

The nice part about your setup is that your mixer has a pretty usable EQ, especially if you're just cutting very broad ranges. Before you ditch the Soundcraft, try a low-shelf cut of about 4-5 db starting at around 400 khz. Use more if you need to, but I suspect you'll start hearing a whole lot of detail begin to open right up.

The NT1000 is a very nice, airy mic that I happen to think sounds really good on the accoustic in the right scenario. Team that with the eq on the soundcraft, and I think you've got a pretty formidable tandem.

The next thing you should have a serious look at is the instrument itself. When you strum it, does it sound really detailed and pleasing to your ears with no mics on it? If not, then you need to change your strings or buy/rent a new guitar. This will have A FAR MORE DRASTIC EFFECT than any mic or preamp combination.

You should also be examining your room accoustics. Most home recordists have plenty of what are called "nodes" in their environment, and they are generally not conducive to detailed recordings of accoustic guitar. :D Before you go back and get your accoustical engineering degree, I'd suggest you try moving to a different room, or to different areas of the room -- experiment.

Lastly, I think you might want to have a second look at your priorities. If White Album Beatles is what you're after, then you might actually be seeking a LESS detailed, warmer sound. Keep in mind that it would be difficult to achieve both warm and detailed at the same time, so keep your expectations and standards in line with the reality of your situation as home recordist . . . and not that of George Martin at Abbey Road Studios.

In other words, there aren't any magical buttons or shortcuts that will get you where you want, and throwing more money at the situation may just cause further personal and financial aggravation. But upgading certainly couldn't hurt, once you've exhausted your other resources.

Good luck.
 
That Neuman is not a bad choice, but chew on this; two 603s' and an rnp will likely make you even more happy. X/Y at the 12th fret, use for overheads you get so much more options. and you get the preamp for another flavor with the other mics.
 
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I was being facetious about the magic button, but isn't that why we buy new gear, hoping that it has one of those on it? I mentioned particular music because words like "detailed" are so subjective.

My acoustic sounds good in the room I record in. It's not a great guitar but it has its sweet spots--and the only guitars I played that sounded better were over a thousand bucks (Gibson Jumbos in particular). I have discovered cutting low frequencies and not micing too close so as not to get too boomy a response in the bass frequencies. I've tried dif mic positions, moving my position around in the room. I'm getting a nice sound, just not a great one.

I've heard that the KM84 is the standard for acoustic guitar micing, but have never used one, and the RNP has been getting raves. I know the smart answer is to keep at it with what I already own, but I have this money burning a hole in my pocket....

The room I record in is roughly 10' by 12' with 11' ceilings. Plaster walls, wood floors with a thin carpet. Moderate natural reverb that sounds good in the room when you are in it.

So, what are nodes and how do I uncover them and not have them adversely affect my recordings?

Oh, and here are the mics I own: NT1000, SM7, SM57, ECM8000. Mic Pres: Soundcraft M12, Art Pro Channel, Behringer MX802.
 
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verticalplunge said:
So, what are nodes and how do I uncover them and not have them adversely affect my recordings?
Click to expand...

I'd do a search on bass traps in the Studio Building/Display forum. I have a bunch of homemade ones using the industrial piping insulation. You'll see that talked about a lot if you include "diy" in your search.

I've noticed a difference. It's easily as big of a difference as buying a nicer mic or pre.

The km184 is an outstanding mic, but I'd have to give the nod to earthworks in the way of SDC's if you have a little extra money to spend. And yes, the RNP is supposed to be very detailed. You'd probably do yourself really well with that setup.
 
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