Meter changes - genius or sloppy?

[mrx]

I've started working with a fledgling singer/songwriter who impressed me with the character of his voice and relative maturity of his songs (a variation on the art-judging theme that it's almost impossible to pick a hit, but quite simple to tell if a writer is 'in the ballpark').

We picked one of his favorite tunes to record, and trying to get the form down, I noticed it was hard to 'find the beat'. He claimed that this was due to 'playing from feel', but I suspected it was a case of being sloppy and adding an extra half beat while trying to finger a chord, etc. However, the more we went over various sections, it became clear that something else was happening - while there was certainly an element of sloppy technique, the song seems to go through intentional meter changes - a single verse, for example could change from 6/4 to 5/4 to 4/4, and back to 5/4. Not having a technical music vocabulary, he can't express what he's doing, short of saying that it 'feels' right to him, and that he has a terrible time getting other players to accompany him on this tune.

At this point I'm thinking that the meter changes are, in fact, intentional and that he's doing something similar to Rush and Sting, where complex changes happen naturally beneath a 'simple sounding' piece of music.

At this point I plan to make multiple recordings, using different days and locations, in an attempt to get a handle on the true meter by noting differences and nailing down whether an 'odd bar' is due to poor performance or if there really are 9/8 bars scattered amongst the rest (I'm certain the 5/4's are intentional).

Anyone else run across a similar issue in their own work? (I've done stuff with odd signatures, but it's usually a planned excercise.)

 

[tanlith]

I'm basically music illiterate... I learned to play by ear and have foundt it to be an excruciating excercise to "go back" and learn it right... what little I now know makes me realize that for the most part I'm trapped in the 4/4 realm... however, on several of the instumental guitar pieces I've written (friends say it's my best work yet) I'm having trouble with meter.... could be a similar problem as your friend... The only person who's been able to "keep up" is my bassist... course we've been jamming together for neigh on 20yrs... best friends since public school and all that...

- Tanlith -

 

[stonepiano]

I don't have the problem with my own music but it can get frustrating when working with songwriters trying to collaborate but don't have the understanding of music theory to explain what they're doing.


I also find these are the same people who want to improvise/jam out over atonal random chord changes and then expect you to solo over it.

If you must work with these people, you might as well start them on their journey to understanding the conventions and the language of modern music. If you don't, then someone else will have to later.

 

[mrx]

I don't have the problem with my own music but it can get frustrating when working with songwriters trying to collaborate but don't have the understanding of music theory to explain what they're doing.


I also find these are the same people who want to improvise/jam out over atonal random chord changes and then expect you to solo over it.

If you must work with these people, you might as well start them on their journey to understanding the conventions and the language of modern music. If you don't, then someone else will have to later.

It's a tight line to walk - one the one hand he can tell the difference between people struggling with his meter, and those that just spew noise over the top, all out of context (Steve Vai playing with Union Station, for example...). On the other, it may be a difficult adjustment for him to accept that some of it is not "feel", but just sloppy playing.

I'm hoping that my multiple recordings will demonstrate that if he's playing the song different each time (in terms of specific time signatures, not extending solos, etc.), then he either has to tighten it up, or accept the fact that he will never get to the next level (that it's basically 'perfomance art'...)

The amazing part is that 5/4 stuff, if properly arranged is going to sound incredible. - as long as no one tries to dance to it...

 

[philboyd studge]

Sounds like an overdubbing nightmare.

Just get him to do it the same way, over and over.

 

[EddieRay]

Sounds like an overdubbing nightmare.

Just get him to do it the same way, over and over.

Yes, as long as he is consistent about it, you can figure out what time signature he plays measure to measure. But if his time sigs are different each take... well, then it's no wonder he can't get anyone to accompany him. Hopefully you can record a good take then have him listen to it over and over and burn it into his brain.

Some of the old blues players used to throw in extra beats or measures and the songs were probably different each time they did'em. I think it really showed the musicianship of the other players that had to deal with it on the fly.

 

[Peter D]

A lot of country swing and country blues uses different meters during songs. The Delmore Brothers were rather famous for it. Most writers I know who do it, notate it in the chart because it does tend to drive musicians batty.

 

[DrSpankenstein]

I used to do the same thing. There was a lot of slop, but I would do like 7/8 in the verse and 4/4 in the chorus and then swing it in the bridge (still 4/4 though). Before I cleaned my rythm up it was really hard for my band to follow me. They would yell at me "it's cool to do time changes but do it the same way every damn time"

what helped me was to lock my self up for a while with my trusty vestax and a drum machine. After a while the rigid drum machine won and I am much better now.

c-ya
dave

ps-one of our coolest songs was mixed time. The drummer would play a simple 4/4 beat, the bassist played a cool 6/8 line and I floated in between in dropped D with whatever felt cool.
aaaahhhhhhhhhh memories!

 

[Aaron Cheney]

In my experience, if the artist/songwriter sitting in my studio can't explain what they're doing, they don't know what they're doing.

I've been through this before too... some bright-eyed newbie comes in to record a song and before long it becomes obvious that they've never played with other musicians before. As soon as you start telling them that what they have is a very complex time sig and weird chord changes they start to get giddy and fancy themselves a prodigy, when the truth is it's just musical ignorance.

I'm not trying to sound harsh at all, and this person could be different for all I know. I'm just telling you what I've experienced.

A
www.aaroncheney.com

 

[Aaron Cheney]

ps-one of our coolest songs was mixed time. The drummer would play a simple 4/4 beat, the bassist played a cool 6/8 line and I floated in between in dropped D with whatever felt cool.
aaaahhhhhhhhhh memories!

Nobody... I repeat NOBODY did that as well as Led Zepplin. Those guys could lay down an odd-meter groove like a hammer. Check out "Ocean" some time....


A
www.aaroncheney.com

 

[DrSpankenstein]

I will check out "ocean". I have prolly already heard that but didn't notice the time sig, I am not that good at counting them out. In fact, I am more impressed when I hear an odd time signature and couldn't tell. Musical ignorance is such a mean sounding phrase. I think I agree though. I have never set out to write an odd timed song it just sort of happens, it feels correct for that song. Sometimes I don't know till my bassist friend tells me. I am very untrained. I even make some of my chords wrong because of the way I learned to play. I would pick out the notes till they fit together. I would love to learn though.

sorry didn't mean to ramble on...get ramble on...in reference to the zepplin mention...oh never mind

dave

ps-what album is ocean on? People used to say it was like kashmir, but that is 4/4 If I remember

HA! I looked on my zepplins cd's Man have I heard oceans one million times in my lifetime. I just never really put the name to the song. Is that a mixed time or do they just add a beat?

later skater

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Musical ignorance is such a mean sounding phrase. I think I agree though.

Ya.... I know. Ignorance is one of those words that has a literal meaning (someone who simply doesn't know something yet), and a "street" meaning (somebody that's stupid) that are different. I was afraid someone might take it the wrong way, and that why I made sure to temper that comment with the one that followed it.

As far as Led Zepp, their approach was to let Bonham lay down a killer 4/4 groove, and then page would play a guitar riff in 5/4 or 7/8 or whatever over the top of it. Thus, you end up with this killer rythmic groove that sounds like it's on the upbeat every other time through the riff. Very, very cool. I guess one would consider that mixed meter, though if I were transcribing it I would do it in the meter that the main guitar riff is in.

I'm trying to think off the top of my head what other songs they did this in (because they did it all the time). Kashmir might be one, Ocean for sure, Black Dog for sure (the main riff).

Sting is also very gifted at making odd meters groove, but his approach is different. He writes drum parts (or rather, he hires drummers that can play) in odd meter along with the music. Listen to "Seven Days" or "Love is Stronger than Justice" sometime. Absolutely brilliant.

A
www.aaroncheney.com

 

[mrx]

Aaron -

("I Hung My Head" is another Sting example that sounds so
natural, even though it's in something like 9/8.)

I agree with your points about ignorance. When I started writing I recall long drawn out fights with people telling me that things had to fit into proper time signatures, and have repeatable forms, etc. I had some brillaint response like "oh yea, 'Yes' doesn't do it that way!" Live and learn.

In the particular case I'm dealing with, I was able to find a recording of the guy playing the tune about six months ago, and compared it to the transcription I made from last week's recording. Unfortunately, instead of confirming the few areas I noted as 'slop' last week, there were other areas that I thought were 'intentional' that did not quite match.

One thing for certain is that the instrumental sections are all played in solid 4/4, so the problem is either that he can't play and sing at the same time, or the vocals require some particular meter that I'm not hearing. I still think it's a combination of the two, as the vocal is definitely not 'slop', yet doesn't want to 'fit' into 4/4.

(Typing this, it occured to me that this may be like 'Slit Skirts' and be swinging between 3/4 and 4/4...)

Thanks for the great dialog on this subject - I'll be interested to get your opinions on the tune once we get this worked out!

 

[jjtcorsair]

In my experience, if the artist/songwriter sitting in my studio can't explain what they're doing, they don't know what they're doing.

I've been through this before too... some bright-eyed newbie comes in to record a song and before long it becomes obvious that they've never played with other musicians before. As soon as you start telling them that what they have is a very complex time sig and weird chord changes they start to get giddy and fancy themselves a prodigy, when the truth is it's just musical ignorance.

I'm not trying to sound harsh at all, and this person could be different for all I know. I'm just telling you what I've experienced.

A
www.aaroncheney.com

I agree... In order to write well you have to have some discipline and structure. His ideas may be a great starting point but they need to be honed into something that will be listenable on a musical level. Odd time signature changes are fine when used in an overall asthetically pleasing way, ie the listener isn't constantly being thrown off the road. Zep and Rush and many others do that well. A novice songwriter that just kind of goes with the flow isn't really writing a "song", they're just putting ideas together. Much of songwriting is the drudgery of "making it work".

 

[napalm229]

Hey guys....newbie as far as recording goes, but I love this site.

I have played for a long time...and I love to play with odd time sigs...but I find that more often than not, if you don't know how to count it out, then you aren't going to get it. Some people think that playing in odd meter is sort of "weird", or that it shows a "lack of maturity"...my favorite excuse.
But the fact is if you are playing in someting like a 5/4 or an 11/8, you better know EXACTLY how it goes. I would encourage anyone who is having a hard time with your band trying to understand what it is you want to go through slowly..and stand a good distance away from your drummer, unless you want to get hit by something when he gets mad ......

For an UNBELIEVABLE display of mastery in odd time sigs...check out anything by Meshuggah...they are insane. It is almost like they can't write in straight time!!! Polyrythms abound...its enough to make you dizzy.

Also realize that most people simply aren't going to get an odd time sig..to most people's ears it will feel unnatural. While I love Meshuggah, it gives most of my friends a headache. Use these things sparingly, is my advice....for all its worth.......

Good luck to all!
Napalm229

 

[the Ozlee]

Meter changes? "AINT" nothin new!

Two people that come to mind, that I have heard about from people who played with them, were James Brown and Elvis. They said that many times it was a matter of "performance," that they had to just follow along and watch for the cues to know when to change.

Keep the fatih, Ozlee

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Re: Meter changes? "AINT" nothin new!

Two people that come to mind, that I have heard about from people who played with them, were James Brown and Elvis.

Hmm....

I don't know the entire catalogue of either Elvis or Mr. Brown, but off hand I can't think of any song by either of them that is anything but 4/4 or 3/4 (or some triplet equivalent, i.e. 12/8).

A
www.aaroncheney.com

 

[the Ozlee]

Re: Re: Meter changes? "AINT" nothin new!

Hmm....

I don't know the entire catalogue of either Elvis or Mr. Brown, but off hand I can't think of any song by either of them that is anything but 4/4 or 3/4 (or some triplet equivalent, i.e. 12/8).

A
www.aaroncheney.com

Aaron,

I can not think of a recording by Elvis, I'm not sure about James Brown, that has mixed meter, so I was surprised when I heard this myself. The basis of my statement came from interviews with former band menbers.

Personally I feel rythmnicaly challenged at times. Although I consider myself a novice, I do have experience writing lead sheets. When it comes to standard notation, time signatures, notes per bar, verse, chorus, etc... If it don't fit- it don't work, and you could say that makes it sloppy. Making it fit, makes it genius. Which is the point I was trying to make. (and not the one on top of my head LOL)

I have always been pro-artist and will always remain so. I think the recorded examples you gave are excellent choices, and after rereading some of the posts I should have taken more time with my response.

MRX you might have a diamond in the rough.

IMHO......Ozlee

 

[Capt Dunsel]

....One thing for certain is that the instrumental sections are all played in solid 4/4, so the problem is either that he can't play and sing at the same time, or the vocals require some particular meter that I'm not hearing....

Or it could be that he is one of those folks who just have no sense of time. The guitarists in two of the bands I play with have this problem. They will drop an entire beat in a 4/4 phrase and have no clue why everyone else will all of a sudden be a beat behind them! And it isn't artistic license, it's just plain old lack of ability. It happens....

 

[mrx]

Or it could be that he is one of those folks who just have no sense of time. The guitarists in two of the bands I play with have this problem. They will drop an entire beat in a 4/4 phrase and have no clue why everyone else will all of a sudden be a beat behind them! And it isn't artistic license, it's just plain old lack of ability. It happens....

That was my point suggesting that perhaps "he can't play and sing at the same time."

After numerous false starts, I was able to capture a third recording of the tune last week...unfortunately it was different than the other two.

What exacerbates the whole situation is that another guitarist now accompanies him, reinforcing the idea in his mind that the song is 'correct'. I think Ozlee is correct with the Elvis and JB stories - they probably sang the same song differently every night, forcing the band to 'follow', which is what's happening in this case. While this may work live, it makes it impossible for the tune to ever reach its potential in a studio rendering.

At this point I'm thinking of capturing just his guitar off the board live, and having him come over a week later to try to dub vocals - perhaps this would make the problem more 'real' to him.

(I would chuck the whole thing, but I'm convinced most of the meter changes 'belong'...)