Maybe getting little better at this?

LDS

LDS

New member
Been doing a bunch of reading and studying lately, mainly due to the advice available on this site. It's a little overwhelming, but little by little, I may be starting to get close to understanding what a clue is if it steps right up and punches me in the nose.

That being said, we tracked some acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass and vocals a couple of nights ago, and I'm almost happy with the results.

With that being said, if anyone would be kind enough to take a listen, I'd be greatly appreciative of all feedback.

http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_3930365
 
Not bad. The acoustic guitar sounds nice. It seems much brighter, clearer and up front than the other instruments. I'm not fond of the panning with the electric guitar off to the right by itself there. It sounds kind of timid all by itself. The vocals sound ok, but kind of on top of everthing else most of the time. Too loud?...needing some/more verb perhaps? I dunno.

The mix overall sounds best to me in the mellower sections where the acoustic is more prominent. It seems to get kind of muddy when everything is going at once, but perhaps that's just me.

So, personally, I would try to clean up some of the low end in general. do another acoustic track and pan them apart, then bring the electric more towards the center. I would bring down the vocals and/or make them a little more wet. Just my thoughts while listening - I am by no means an expert or anything :).
 
Thanks!!!

It took a while to talk him into putting the acoustic guitar on there at all. I spoke to him after reading this and we're going to do another acoustic guitar track next week and try what you suggest.

I agree that the vocals are a bit hot. I'll work on fixing that, too.

Any specific suggesitons on cleaning up the low end?
 
LDS said:
Thanks!!!

It took a while to talk him into putting the acoustic guitar on there at all. I spoke to him after reading this and we're going to do another acoustic guitar track next week and try what you suggest.

I agree that the vocals are a bit hot. I'll work on fixing that, too.

Any specific suggesitons on cleaning up the low end?
Click to expand...

cut everything from 100-200Hz except for the kick and the bass...


then also try reducing a little of the electric around 250 -800Hz and the bass around the same to give it all a bit more space in the mids/mid lows

might clean it up a bit
 
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kcearl said:
cut everything from 100-200Hz except for the kick and the bass...


then also try reducing a little of the electric around 250 -800Hz and the bass around the same to give it all a bit more space in the mids/mid lows

might clean it up a bit
Click to expand...
I already shelved the electric and acoustic guitars about -9 db from 600Hz down.

I'll give the rest a shot.
 
Yeah... First thing I notice (besides the clarity of all instruments recorded) is the vocals "in-your-face"ness. Ya gotta do something about seating the vocals a bit more in the mix. I'm also noticing just a tad bit of sibilance issues with the vocals.

I really like the mix of the guitars. No issues there at all.

Drums - cymbals are really hot in comparison with the rest of the kit. Pump up the snare and the kick - a lot. During times when all instruments are going full, the snare is all but totally lost in the mix.

That about sums it up for this one. Great job! Keep it up.
 
The mix of the instruments sound OK to me, however the vocals need to come down a bit, they're pretty loud in comparison the rest of the mix. BTW if you didn't already know this, the song has an almost uncanny similarity to nutshell by Alice In Chains
 
Alright, thanks everyone!!!

My checklist for this evening's work:
Drop everything but the kick and bass in the 100-200 Hz range.
Seat the vocals better and clean up sibilance.
Even out the kick and snare with the rest of the drums.

It'll be later in the week before Chris gets a chance to come over and do another acoustic track. I've spoken to him about it, and he likes the idea.

I'm a little hesitant to make the acoustic much more prominent, since we do it live as a three-piece with electric guitar. It seems like once we did the acoustic track, the song took on a new life of it's own.

I hadn't heard that Alice in Chains song previously, at least that I recall. It just seemed like that little run on the bass worked well to bridge what the toms and guitar were doing.
 
I totally and completely 100% disagree with the "cut everything but the kick and bass" philosophy. That's crazy talk. Guitars and vocals have life down in the 200 region. The acoustic has no body sound to it whatsoever. It's tinny and thin. That's what big cuts and shelving do for you. The levels alone are so out of whack on this mix that you can't really tell if frequencies are fighting each other. The vocals are stomping all over everything. They could come down 5db and still probably be too loud. The drums are pretty much non-existent. I hear cymbals, but very little snare, and no kick at all. Again, level problems. I suspect that the bass guitar is a little muddy, but I don't really know for sure because there's no kick for comparison. The bass and kick work together. I say this all the time and I'm gonna say it again - a good mix starts with the drums. The drums start with kick and snare. If you have good kick and snare presence, the rest is easy as pie. Drop everything until you can find the kick, then find the snare, and build around them.
 
Listen to Greg for he DOES know what he's talking about.

You wipe out all the meat of the sound and you'll wind up w/ a very anemic sound.

You can carve eq regions ... if you've instruments frequency stepping on each other, but wholesale lopping off is to be avoided (unless there is a specific purpose intended - say reducing the impact of BGV's against the lead vocal).

The most important thing to remember is GIGO ... make sure what you're laying to "tape" is properly recorded on the way in. Look for balance of sound as you're tracking. If the guitar sounds boomy and you let it slide, you'll be twisting the heck out of dials and it still might not sound right because the source was wrong.

Fix it in the mix only goes so far. I mention this because you mentioned you may retrack ... and it's rule one of recording.

Best,

Kev-
 
OK, whew!

Took all the EQ out of the guitars. Pumped up the snare and the kick a bit, rolled off a touch of lows on the snare. Cut 6 dB on the vocals. Spread the acoustic across both channels. Brought the drum overheads down about 4 dB. Pushed the individual tom mics up about 2dB and dialed in a touch of low end EQ on them via a multiband compressor.

Recorded a new bass track, the original one was on my Ric and had a lot of string noise, used the old Gibson EB-3 this time. That one has a big dirty, boomy bass sound (think All Right Now by Free, same bass). Yeah, it's probably going to sound a bit muddy, but that bass is just, uh, rude.

The biggie? Shitcanned the compressor. I had the stereo mix going through a compressor. To me it made it parkle and sound louder at first, but the more I listened to it, the more I could hear how it was altering the balance of the original mix.

I know it needs more help, but not sure which direction to go at this point. I dunno, kick and snare too hot now, maybe?

Anyway, here's version 2.0: http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_3949023
 
That's way, way better than it was. It sounds like a song now. Much more balanced. The kick and snare are just right now. They're definitely not too loud. You could maybe nudge the vocals back up just a hair. More bass gtr would be good too. But overall your fixes were definitely in the right direction. Much better.
 
Thanks!

You know, that's about where it was before I started "mixing."

It's so easy to nudge something up, then something else, then something else until thing are way out of balance.

Question on the bass. Do you think that's about the right tone, or maybe something a touch brighter?
 
And if you strap a limiter across everything, the curious thing is you can commit sonic torture ... because the ear naturally thinks louder is better as you sit in the moment.

The trouble is when you go back, and your reference point has returned to normal.

Much better now than before.

K-
 
Greg_L said:
I totally and completely 100% disagree with the "cut everything but the kick and bass" philosophy. That's crazy talk. Guitars and vocals have life down in the 200 region. The acoustic has no body sound to it whatsoever. It's tinny and thin. That's what big cuts and shelving do for you.
Click to expand...


correct me if im wrong (and i know you will :) )


but under 100Hz theres nothing really happening with the guitar, snare or vocals?


I have to admit to trying to make cuts now and I think im getting much more clarity...even the bass gets a cut at around 50Hz....although I cant necessarily hear the immediate effect Ive read that once its all in the mix it helps clarity without loosing low end...

hats,cymbals around 200Hz...keys, strings around 50Hz...not exact but you know roughly??
 
I don't know if you're wrong, I just disagree with any kind of drastic and destrctive EQing. You don't deal with many, if any, real acoustic instruments, so blanket cuts across the board may work for you. But if you can't hear the changes, what do you think is happening? Sure frequencies can play negatively with eachother, but damn, how bad is it that you have to kill an entire range of useful frequency? Sub-50hz, knock yourself out. Most playback setups can't reproduce those sounds anyway. But 50-100hz is very audbile. And lots of instruments can play down in the 100-150 range.
 
Greg_L said:
I don't know if you're wrong, I just disagree with any kind of drastic and destrctive EQing. You don't deal with many, if any, real acoustic instruments, so blanket cuts across the board may work for you. But if you can't hear the changes, what do you think is happening? Sure frequencies can play negatively with eachother, but damn, how bad is it that you have to kill an entire range of useful frequency? Sub-50hz, knock yourself out. Most playback setups can't reproduce those sounds anyway. But 50-100hz is very audbile. And lots of instruments can play down in the 100-150 range.
Click to expand...

yup I hear you (but i have cut any frequencies below 50Hz lol)

its maybe not audible on my budget system but more so in the mix...mind you i could just be getting better at mixing in general


btw I do record real acoustic instruments i just havent posted any yet...so beware :)
 
kcearl said:
correct me if im wrong (and i know you will :) )


but under 100Hz theres nothing really happening with the guitar, snare or vocals?


I have to admit to trying to make cuts now and I think im getting much more clarity...even the bass gets a cut at around 50Hz....although I cant necessarily hear the immediate effect Ive read that once its all in the mix it helps clarity without loosing low end...

hats,cymbals around 200Hz...keys, strings around 50Hz...not exact but you know roughly??
Click to expand...
IIRC, A=440 is the fifth fret of the high E string on the guitar. Two octaves below that (110 Hz) would then be the open A string, an octave below that (55 Hz) is the open A string on a bass. So, considering lower harmonics and overtones there would be a bunch below 100 Hz going on with a guitar playing open chords.
 
Greg_L said:
I totally and completely 100% disagree with the "cut everything but the kick and bass" philosophy. That's crazy talk.
Click to expand...

Good thing you typed that, because I would have gone on a rampage......

LDS, one piece of advice I can give you is that you should NEVER do anything unless you HEAR the difference and unless you know why you're doing it.
 
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