Mastering Limiters?

[MatthewRedStars]

I can't imagine digital distortion (clipping) or any audible distortion sounding good on recordings. Although maybe it sounds better for stuff like rock music like you said. Or grunge/punk shit.

There's a band from round these parts that crushed the life out of their album to the point of distortion. And to be honest when it first kicks in it does sound exciting and ROCK and full of energy. So aggresive, i can imagine how happy they were.

But after a few tracks it's just exhausting. I can't listen to more than a song now and again.

Just thinking about it is giving me a headache.

 

[masteringhouse]

What these guys do is drive the mix into their A/Ds and most don't use any limiting at all, but do use a limiter for the ceiling.

Yes, and there's also forms of limiting built inside of the converter that are used. Lavry's A and D saturation for example.

Essentially using the converter this way works like a brickwall limiter, but the converter has to be able to handle the level and recover gracefully.

 

[Reggie]

I was surprised how well even my cheapy RME at home could handle being overdriven. Although I rarely do it because it just doesn't work in my flow -- in the box EQ > out of the box compression > in the box final EQ, compression, and limiting -- and I don't care to try EQing something that has already had the bits crushed out of it.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'm sure the whole "louder is better" idea is because of the radio. After all; before the internet (and to an extent music tv) radio was where the big musicians would showcase their new songs. If it sounded louder it'd get more easily noticed.

It actually goes all the way back to The Golden Days of Radio in the 30s and 40s (and possibly before.)

The broadcast engineers back then knew that when using amplidtude modulation (AM) broadcasting, the further one pushed the modulation level of the signal, the farther away one could hear the broadcast without having to actually increase the rated wattage of the transmitter. While ideal sound is acheived when peaking at a maximum of 100% modulation*, with good gain staging and a well-tuned transmitter, one could push the "modge" "into the red" and get a few more miles of range without sacrificing "too much" in signal quality.

Well, the sponsors of the radio shows found about about this and figured that more range = more listeners and more listeners = more customers. So therefore, by the metrics of a show sponsor (not of a broadcast engineer) over-modulation was a good thing.

This has gotten watered down and over simplified over the years as the ridiculously false truism that 'louder is better". The fact that today's broadcast and production technologies and markets resemble those of the 30's in approximately the same way as the iPhone resembles a CB radio means nothing to those mooks.

As far a pushing the converter, I gotta tell you that I hear that on a lot more than rock mixes, and that to my ears, that sounds just as artificial and crappy as any other type of overdrive. The latest victim I heard was a Willie Nelson recording, of all things, from 2000. A laid back, bluesly composition (a cover of the old torch standard "Sittin On Top of the World") It was obviously force fed into the converter in an attempt to make foie gras come out the other side. It doesn't sound *awful*, but it definitely sounds pushed and in your face, and I don't mean that in a good way. If they had laid back just a couple of dB it would have sounded sooooo much better. I'm just not sold *at all* on the idea of overdirving or pushing just for RMS, regardless of where it's done.

*If you ever wondered why some of the VU meters on your analog gear have a second set of numbers start at somewhere between zero and 20 on the left, and ending at 100 at the 0VU mark, that scale represents (or at least once represented) percentage of amplitude modulation applied to a given carrier signal. 0VU = 100% modulation. Which is why anything over 0VU was "in the red", because ideally one should not exceed 100% modulation...at least not until the marketing types came in.

G.

 

[YellowMatter]

Yes, and there's also forms of limiting built inside of the converter that are used. Lavry's A and D saturation for example.

Essentially using the converter this way works like a brickwall limiter, but the converter has to be able to handle the level and recover gracefully.

It is true that the Lavry does have optional limiting and saturation, but the mastering engineers I've worked with don't use it, they just drive the input. Its more transparent that way actually.

 

[masteringhouse]

It is true that the Lavry does have optional limiting and saturation, but the mastering engineers I've worked with don't use it, they just drive the input. Its more transparent that way actually.

As always it's going to depend on the material. For material that's low in level with a wide range, D Sat works very well (works similar to analog tape). For less aggressive types of music with extraneous peaks A Sat may be the way to go.

Possibly your material doesn't fit into the above scenarios, so just letting it fly works best. Mastering is rarely a one size fits all. I just didn't want folks to get the impression that running the converter into the red is always the way that it's done.

 

[Robert D]

I use L3 a lot and hate it!!!

 

[noisedude]

I should have said "mastering engineers" rather then rock engineers...

Clipping is very common amongst them, I've worked with and watched some of the very best.

What these guys do is drive the mix into their A/Ds and most don't use any limiting at all, but do use a limiter for the ceiling.

Here is an example of two of my own masters that used no limiting, just clipping, the first is a Lavry Gold, the second is a Lynx Aurora clocked with a Big Ben:

www.yellowmatterrecords.com/slate/MiseryFinal.wav

www.yellowmatterrecords.com/slate/LoatheMasterMS.wav

Before makinga any assumptions, try GClip and see how well it preserves your drums compared to bashing your poor mix with an L2's nasty threshold.

See what I thought you were saying was that there was NO limiting and that they were clipping (digitally) at the converters.

A brickwall limiter at -0.1dBFS makes perfect sense, what you seemed to be saying (at least how I read it) was NO limiting and clipping the converters ... which sounds horrible, does it not?

Awesome tracks, by the way, you're obviously very skilled.

 

[noisedude]

It's all I really have to make up the volume. I hate the crap it introduces - even in my awful monitors I can hear all sorts of artifacts - but it DOES make the stuff louder, and that matters when you start putting the mixes about for people to hear (as you know, being in a good band yourself if I remember right!!).

Like I say, Sonnox Dynamics would be my first choice. But I have rich friends with kit and software they don't use, so I may cast around to see if there's a Vintage Warmer knocking about (even though it is way confusing to use).

Nik

 

[charger]

I did a shootout with a friend on another site, where we compared a whole slew of mastering limiters. Based on the results of that, I wholeheartedly recommend BuzMaxi3... hands down the best limiter I've heard... well, a virtual tie with voxengo Elephant, but BuzMaxi3 is free.

 

[Cazzbar]

I tend to make my mixes roughly comparable in volume with the average radio station... there's nowt worse than someone whose finished listening to your CD in the car, clicking stop when suddenly everyone is deafened when the radio kicks in! with the driver desperately searching for the volume button. It just gives the impression the CD is weak and produced way below 'professional' standard, even though it may be mixed wonderfully with great dynamics.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I tend to make my mixes roughly comparable in volume with the average radio station... there's nowt worse than someone whose finished listening to your CD in the car, clicking stop when suddenly everyone is deafened when the radio kicks in! with the driver desperately searching for the volume button. It just gives the impression the CD is weak and produced way below 'professional' standard, even though it may be mixed wonderfully with great dynamics.

Problem with that is that trying to compare a CD to the radio is comparing apples to oranges; rarely is a car stereo manufactured where the output voltage of the tuner section is exqactly the same as the output voltage of the CD playback section. On most of them one will hear a difference in volume between the CD and the radio no matter who's disc you stick in there.

Furthermore, the difference between the tuner and the CD is going to be different for most models of car stereo. If there a (for example) 8dB difference in this car, there could easily be a 2dB difference in that car and a - 12dB dirrerence in the other car because the bames and models of car stereo have different section output specs.

G.

 

[Cazzbar]

I so knew I was going to be exposed as an audio womble with that last post of mine, I deserved it I know

I guess what I mean is... I can switch between the radio and commercial CDs in my car without feeling the need to adjust the volume, but if I put in one of my CDs and feel I have to turn the volume up to maintain similar levels as before then I'm not very satisfied... but when the loudness is comparable to the radio and other commercial CDs then a little part of me is happy!

But mastering at a home recording level is my next learning curve as I've been happy with my mixes recently (mainly due to improved tracking equipment which has magically allowed my tracks to blend really well as opposed to fighting for space as before). I mainly need to be able to even out song volume levels, so learning good techniques for compressors/limiters on mixed tracks I guess. Would you load up all the tracks intended for one CD into the same project and work on them as a whole? Don't worry, I'll get reading!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I guess what I mean is... I can switch between the radio and commercial CDs in my car without feeling the need to adjust the volume, but if I put in one of my CDs and feel I have to turn the volume up to maintain similar levels as before then I'm not very satisfied...

OK, that's a different story, comparing CD to CD. So, what you are asking is what everybody asks here; "How can I make a professionial production without making it a professional production?

Would you load up all the tracks intended for one CD into the same project and work on them as a whole?

I'm sure the real MEs here will come in and correct what I say here, but the way I do it is to work on them all individually.

Start, however by reviewing and analyzing all the tracks, and pick out the one with the sparsest mix and lowest overall RMS. Bring that song up to it best, highest level just before it starts sounding brittle and over-pushed. This takes an honest ear that's not tricked by volume or biased by what other tracks or other CDs may sound like. Then pull it back from that brink by one dB.

Then once you have that track optimized, use that as a reference to match the other tracks to. but match them by A/Bing the actual sound, not by actual RMS readings, because those RMS numbers will change by song mix and density.

That'll give you the album levels that match well with each other. You could also then go back and create individual remasters of any tracks you may want to market as singles that have their own individual maximum levels, but the album masters work better IMHO when the apparent audible levels from track to track are comparable and matched to each other.

YMMV, etc.

G.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

I should have said "mastering engineers" rather then rock engineers...

Clipping is very common amongst them, I've worked with and watched some of the very best.

What these guys do is drive the mix into their A/Ds and most don't use any limiting at all, but do use a limiter for the ceiling.

Here is an example of two of my own masters that used no limiting, just clipping, the first is a Lavry Gold, the second is a Lynx Aurora clocked with a Big Ben:

www.yellowmatterrecords.com/slate/MiseryFinal.wav

www.yellowmatterrecords.com/slate/LoatheMasterMS.wav

Before makinga any assumptions, try GClip and see how well it preserves your drums compared to bashing your poor mix with an L2's nasty threshold.

How does the plugin compare to doing it on your hardware converters? Also, have you tried gclip against Voxengo Elephant 2, which also has a clipping algorithm as well as limiting algos?

PS. Can't wait for V2 of the slate samples. I've used them on at least 1 drum in every project since I got them. And the programming stuff sounds perfect for me.

 

[Anaon]

a lot of rock mastering engineers don't use any limiting at all, but rather overdrive the input of their A/D converters. You can simulate this by using the GClip plugin, get it fore FREE here:

http://www.gvst.co.uk/gclip.htm

here is how to use it:

push in the 2x oversampling button, and then raise the gain. After the GClip plugin, put an L2 or some kind of limiter but DO NOT PUSH DOWN THE THRESHOLD but rather just put a ceiling of -.03.

What you'll find is a much better sounding master that is plenty loud and actually has drum punch.

Sorry for bumping this old thread but this is really interesting!! I'm searching for a way to keep the punch of my drums and I cant' wait to try this Gclip! Is there anyone else who uses it?

 

[bkkornaker]

ill jump in on this old thread.........

Of all the So called limiters, and mastering "blah blah blah" ive used.......i found only one that works the best as far as giving decent volume without killing snare drums and dynamics......

Sonic Timeworks Mastering compressor (limiter).

Ive tried Waves Rcomp (not really a limter), L2, L3, Izotpe Ozone, PSP, and others.......all in which kills your snare dynamics when pushed hard.

I ran a test of all the above limiters, and ran a mix through them all trying to achieve all the same relative volume in respect with each other, and the Timeworks works best (IMO). It may not be transparent and colorless.......but it kept my drums intact while having huge volume.....while the others just took the snare drum and made it almost disappear.

 

[Anaon]

Hi!

The snare/drums loss of dynamics is exactly why I posted here! I tried a lot limiter too and the best one to me are the Oxford one and Voxengo Elephant.

But I tried GClip yesterday and it's rather good!! Well, it seems to be a good way to add volume without losing dynamics. It's free, I don't know if it's really transparent but it seems to work!!