Mastering Choral Music

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pezking

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Anyone got experience with mastering choral music? Specifically a carol concert I recorded in a church over the festive period.

Just wondering if anyone could give a few pointers, do's and don'ts that kinda thing.

My first thought is I obviously don't want to compress/limit too much, but I think a little is necessary to allow more comfortable listening...
 
I've struggled with this too. Not like I know much about mastering at all.

One of the great things about choirs is the great variance in dynamics, but that fact causes problems for the recording engineer!

I have some recordings of my choir where we can be quite quiet, and get quite loud.
When you listen, it's very hard to hear the quiet, and too loud for the loud...
 
pezking said:
Anyone got experience with mastering choral music? Specifically a carol concert I recorded in a church over the festive period.
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Bunches... More than I care for. Well, not specifically the recording you made last month, but a lot of other ones to be sure.

Just wondering if anyone could give a few pointers, do's and don'ts that kinda thing.
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Same as any other recording. Do what the mix tells you to do. You need a game plan on what you have vs. what "potential" is available - Realistically available. Enhance the good by reducing the bad and off you go.

My first thought is I obviously don't want to compress/limit too much, but I think a little is necessary to allow more comfortable listening...
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The purists would flog you for talking like that... :eek:

But very (VERY) careful parallel processing might get you a little low-level push without crowing the high-level stuff too much.
 
pezking said:
My first thought is I obviously don't want to compress/limit too much, but I think a little is necessary to allow more comfortable listening...
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Absolutely, you need to control the crescendos so that they don't become overbearing while maintaining a good level overall. It's really a classic use of a compressor, to control dynamic range and not really to thicken or alter sound as it might be used in Rock music. The compressor should be as transparent as possible and I would likely shy away from the more "colorful" types of compressors. I usually use a Weiss DS-1 for this type of material at a very low ratio, and/or automate levels where needed.
 
I wouldn't use a compressor unless you have a *really* nice outboard one.

It's time consuming - but really this is a job for 'manual' compression via automation or editing IMO.
 
I defer to John and Tom as the real experts here, and neither one of them said anything I disagree with, though their wording on compression sounds a bit contradictiry if taken the wrong way.

Taking my life in my hands here,I might just want to try and maybe clear up that apparent contradiction, with the full willingness to have either of them come and publicly slap me down if I get it wrong:

That type of music recording is one where you don't want to to sound compressed, but some very clean and subtle compression may be desired just to pull in the dynamics by a couple of dB. Not enough to make the dynamics noticably artificial, but just enough to make them a bit more comfortable at standard playback volumes. If one has to strain to hear the quiet stuff, that may not be ideal; making that just a little easier on the listener without making it sound artificially compacted might be something to think about.

I'd also, try and stay away from too much EQ. Perhaps a parametric sweep and notch here or there to remove a problem honk here or there introduced by the gear itself, but otherwise leave it fairly natural, I would think.

The question I would like to pose to T & J about this: How you you approach the compression vs. noise floor angle on this? By that I mean, because the dynamics are so wide, I'd think there'd be an increased issue with dealing with the noise floor. I know it's different from recording to recording, but what would be your plan of attack going into it?

G.
 
My biggest question would be, does it sound like it was recorded in a good space? A prerequisite to that is that the church be a good space, and not all (many) of them are. Then the mic technique has to be selected to either capture a good space or exclude a bad one.

If it's the latter, after fixing any EQ issues that pop up, I'd spend most of my time getting a good, natural room sound through careful and considered room modeling reverb. That's not mastering at all, but it could be very key.

My next question (maybe this should have been first) is, is this a church choir concert, or a professional choir concert in a church? Not that church choirs are unprofessional, but the intended audience of the two could be very different. The church choir might be more open to audio sweetening than the professional choir that uses a church to record because it IS a good space.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
The question I would like to pose to T & J about this: How you you approach the compression vs. noise floor angle on this? By that I mean, because the dynamics are so wide, I'd think there'd be an increased issue with dealing with the noise floor. I know it's different from recording to recording, but what would be your plan of attack going into it?
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(@ thread) It depends on the client... With one "regular" just saying the word "compressor" means "compromise" and he doesn't want to hear it. A lot of classical & jazz clients are like that. They don't mind cranking it up - and the recordings sound better because of it.

With some others, they consider it realistic to use a little light compression - Hard to listen to a wide choral or symphonic piece in a car going 60MPH on the expressway... But they don't want to notice it... So, parallel work with A&R times measured in seconds instead of milliseconds, volume curves on individual timpani, glockenspiel and triangle hits, etc., etc.

(@ SSG) Rough one again -- Some want it to be exactly as heard. Others definitely want it cleaned up. I still do a lot of (stereo) tracking for classical (symphonic, choral, operatic, chamber, ensembles, etc.) in a few particular rooms - Some are live concerts in a theatre with a bit of mechanical noise. That's where maul-the-band compressors can be my best friend - as frequency-conscious expanders -- Of course, that's why getting a noise print on the room is so unbelievably important (hint to those that send in recordings that don't send in some "silence") - Empty and with audience - so those settings can be tweaked later.

If it means anything, UAD's Precision Maul-the-band (heh...) is probably the best thing I've used for such work.

But the "plan of attack" -- With most recordings (pop, rock, etc.) the plan is to enhance the good. With a lot of classical, it's to reduce the bad - as transparently as possible.
 
mshilarious said:
My biggest question would be, does it sound like it was recorded in a good space? A prerequisite to that is that the church be a good space, and not all (many) of them are. Then the mic technique has to be selected to either capture a good space or exclude a bad one.

My next question (maybe this should have been first) is, is this a church choir concert, or a professional choir concert in a church? Not that church choirs are unprofessional, but the intended audience of the two could be very different. The church choir might be more open to audio sweetening than the professional choir that uses a church to record because it IS a good space.
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I recorded with an XY pair of DPA 4011s and with a pair of Schoeps CMC5 (with mk2 capsule) as outriggers. I wanted to use an ORTF pair for my main pickup, but I needed an adapter I didn't have with me. As a result, the mix (before artificial reverb, obviously) is a bit lacking in ambient noise. I plan to use a lexicon 480 for the reverb, but thus far have been using Waves renaissance reverb.

I don't think that there are any eq issues, but I really need to listen on better monitors for a while (B&W Nautilus :D). I'm actually pretty happy with the sound of everything. It's a very flat, natural sounding recording, and it was my first of this type as head engineer.

The choir aren't professional, but they are of a very high standard, probably the best choir of it's type in the area. The venue wasn't chosen for the recording, the venue was chosen probably for location (and it's a beautiful church...). The director already requested that I use reverb on the recording, and I pretty much have free reign over any mixing/mastering decisions.

I do like the idea of fader automation, and parallel processing. I'll have an experiment later on.

One more quick question, more about opinions, would you leave the applause after each track and fade it out, or cut it before the applause (obviously making it sound natural!)? The final say is from the director, but I have my own ideas...

Thanks for the replies thus far, much appreciated!
 
pezking said:
One more quick question, more about opinions, would you leave the applause after each track and fade it out, or cut it before the applause (obviously making it sound natural!)? The final say is from the director, but I have my own ideas...
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It really depends on how you want it to be perceived. If you want the entire CD to sound like an entire concert, I would try crossfading them. If you want them to sound like separate pieces, fade out. I think that cutting it before the applause would sound pretty unnatural unless you had a good buffer of room tone between the last note and start of applause.
 
masteringhouse said:
It really depends on how you want it to be perceived. If you want the entire CD to sound like an entire concert, I would try crossfading them. If you want them to sound like separate pieces, fade out. I think that cutting it before the applause would sound pretty unnatural unless you had a good buffer of room tone between the last note and start of applause.
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I do in almost all of the tracks. It was the typical thing of the audience being slightly unsure if the piece had finished. A lot of the carols aren't very well known you see...

I'm unsure as to whether or not the tracks are all going to be on the same CD. I think the director wants to pick a few to put on a compilation. Hopefully including prospective recordings I make of them! ;)
 
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