Master Fader Gain vs. Limiter Gain

[scarboro78]

Hi Guys,

I have a question about rasing the overall volume on a mix. Generally, at the end of a mix, I end up with a lot of headroom on the overall volume of a song. Meaning I can push the master fader 3 or 4db before I actually clip.

My mixing routine is:

1) Record & Mix in Cubase leaving master fader at 0. (24 bit)
2) Export mixed 24 bit wav file.
3) Import 24 bit wav file into Wavelab.
4) Run through a Multi-Band Compressor
5) Run through a L2 Limiter for volume & dithering
6) Export wav at 16 bit.

Now here are the questions, since I have so much headroom to play with..

1) Would it be best to raise the volume on the master fader as high as I can before clipping? If so, should I do it in Cubase or Wavelab.. does it make a difference?

2) Should I just raise the overall volume with the limiter alone and leave the master faders on cubase and wavelab set to 0?

3) Should I raise the individual track volumes up in Cubase after mixing to get the overall volume as loud as I can without clipping (leaving the master fader at 0) and then use the Limiter in Wavelab to get the volume louder as needed?

4) Would any of these affect the quality of the final product for better or for worse??

Sorry about the long winded post but I would appreciate osme feedback, thanks guys!!

 

[mshilarious]

1) Would it be best to raise the volume on the master fader as high as I can before clipping? If so, should I do it in Cubase or Wavelab.. does it make a difference?

It's the last thing that is done. I don't understand why your L2 isn't doing it for you. Check your settings.

2) Should I just raise the overall volume with the limiter alone and leave the master faders on cubase and wavelab set to 0?

Yes, possibly lower in Cubase if for some reason your mix clips (although you don't seem to have that problem). Zero in Wavelab as your limiter plug should make sure there are no overs, and that volume is maxed.

3) Should I raise the individual track volumes up in Cubase after mixing to get the overall volume as loud as I can without clipping (leaving the master fader at 0) and then use the Limiter in Wavelab to get the volume louder as needed?

No, I would let Wavelab handle all the mastering chores.

4) Would any of these affect the quality of the final product for better or for worse??

Probably not, but save some headroom until the very end. Also, when you save to 16 bit, you should use the dither function in Wavelab (really, the bundled Apogee dither routines) as part of your render to 16 bit.

 

[LeeRosario]

1) Would it be best to raise the volume on the master fader as high as I can before clipping? If so, should I do it in Cubase or Wavelab.. does it make a difference?

2) Should I just raise the overall volume with the limiter alone and leave the master faders on cubase and wavelab set to 0?

3) Should I raise the individual track volumes up in Cubase after mixing to get the overall volume as loud as I can without clipping (leaving the master fader at 0) and then use the Limiter in Wavelab to get the volume louder as needed?

4) Would any of these affect the quality of the final product for better or for worse??

Sorry about the long winded post but I would appreciate osme feedback, thanks guys!!

1) This is good practice in preping songs for the mastering part. One thing that Bob Katz brought to light was exactly that, he said, "I think it's great that you give your mixes 6-3db of headroom, but if you can get it as close to zero as possible, that would be best". (Before mastering)

2) You always want to try to never touch your master fader and always leave it at zero. Traditionally on analog consoles, you would set your master fader to unity, because this provided the most optimal sound for the board with the lowest noise possible. However, that's not the case in digital, so if you have raise or lower the master fader a little, that's alright.

Sometimes I see mix sessions that are so heavily automated that by the time they realize it was clipping, the only thing we can do is to lower the master fader.

3) I beleive that question was answer in number 1. However, I would tend to leave mastering processes to Wavelab. There is a simple reason why:

Mastering programs (such as wavelab, Sadie, Audiocube, etc) are designed with higher quality algorithms than programs like Cubase & Pro Tools. Wavelab allows you to work up to 32-bit float, whereas I beleive audiocube is currently the best sounding on the market at 64-bit float. So the design is specifically tailored to mastering, so I would always reserve the final steps for the mastering software, (in this case Wavelab).

4) Well for this one, I hate to say it over and over, but you have to use your ears. From experience, I can tell you that all good limiters have thier limits (ironic huh?).

The current favorite among home users (seems to be) is the L3. I've worked with the L3 on TDM and let me tell you that it is rock solid, sounds good for the most part. However, when you start pushing it beyond 3db of attenuation, you start going into the danger zone.

You risk having this exhausted sound or as we say in spanish "desplayao" which means "worn out or faded". Not very attractive to my ear, but if you can manage to stay within good limits, a limiter should never change your sound dramatically. Originally it was reserved to brick all sounds beyond a certain point, but now with the advent of ultramaximizing and the need for hyper compression, you can now magnify your sounds.

Remember, compressors alternate EQ, limiters don't. Also respect the dynamic range of your material. So if you see that the song has some quiet parts throughout the song, remember that it's ok for it to be that low. That's how you achieve relative loudness, which translates into an exciting mix.

 

[scarboro78]

Thanks for your reply guys. I pretty much understand the dynamics of volume and how it relates to the overall mix of the song. To be honest I hate having to boost the volumes of my music through Limiting.. but it's the only way I can achieve that "commerical" volume everyone is thirsty for. I hate what it does to my mixes.. but I'm trying to live with it now as best as possible without ruining my mixes... therefore all the questions.

Unfortunately I seem to be getting two different answers though. The reason I ask about pushing the master fader to raise the volume as high as possible without clipping is because I'm trying to avoid excessive Limiting in the mastering stage. So again...

1) Should I push the individual tracks up to get the volume as close to clipping as possible?

or

2) Can I just push the master fader and achieve the same? Is there a difference between the two?

I'm thinking this is the best thing to do before going into Wavelab for "mastering".. Like I said, I want to avoid as much Limiting as possible while still achieving "commercial" volume.

Thanks again guys!

 

[mshilarious]

OK if your peak level when you are done is -3dBFS, then you need to raise your volume 3dB. It doesn't particularly matter how you do it, whether in a limiter, or the master fader, it is a simple gain change and should not affect the quality of your audio.

However, limiters are often used in mastering to decrease dynamic range, or peak-RMS level, to increase apparent loudness. In the above example with a peak of -3dBFS, and let's say an RMS of -17dBFS, if you set your limiter to +4dB, you would end up with peak of 0 and RMS or -13dBFS, thereby losing 1dB of dynamic range.

When Lee says 3dB of limiting is the max before you totally kill your track, he's talking about loss of dynamic range, not a simple gain change to get peak levels up. Continuing with our example, that would be +6dB in the limiter, for a final peak level of 0 and RMS of -11dBFS.

 

[scarboro78]

OK if your peak level when you are done is -3dBFS, then you need to raise your volume 3dB. It doesn't particularly matter how you do it, whether in a limiter, or the master fader, it is a simple gain change and should not affect the quality of your audio.

However, limiters are often used in mastering to decrease dynamic range, or peak-RMS level, to increase apparent loudness. In the above example with a peak of -3dBFS, and let's say an RMS of -17dBFS, if you set your limiter to +4dB, you would end up with peak of 0 and RMS or -13dBFS, thereby losing 1dB of dynamic range.

When Lee says 3dB of limiting is the max before you totally kill your track, he's talking about loss of dynamic range, not a simple gain change to get peak levels up. Continuing with our example, that would be +6dB in the limiter, for a final peak level of 0 and RMS of -11dBFS.

Great.. very useful information, although I don't exactly understand the mathematics.. the idea is apparent. Thank you very much!